Okay, I'm finally ready to begin, lol. Now for a brief summary of what happens in thse two chapters:

- Well from the very beginning, we get the sense that Snape is evil and is working undercover for Voldermort. Already we learn that both he and Draco are up to no good.

- Draco gets a little sympathy, I guess. He's dealing with the loss of his dad. Therefore Draco knows that if he does not successfully complete Voldemort’s bidding, he and his family will be killed immediately. But is he really bad?

- Snape, in taking the Unbreakable Vow, suggests that he is in fact, dedicated to supporting Voldemort in whatever task he has set himself to. In doing so, Snape goes against the Order of the Phoenix. Still, it is important to remember that Snape has a long history of working as a double agent, swearing loyalty to Dumbledore while pretending to support Voldemort, and funneling information about Voldemort’s plans back to Dumbledore and the Order. Despite agreeing to an Unbreakable Vow, there is still a very small possibility that Snape might, in fact, be following Dumbledore’s orders, especially considering how Dumbledore’s plans are always self-sacrificing and designed for the greater good.

What do you think?

I don't think Draco starts getting Sympathy till later on but Narcissa certaintly does in chapter two. She has rather lost the plot and will obviously do anything to protect her son, even if it means betraying the dark lord which I think may be an important point even though she does claim to have known that Snape had been informed of Draco's task. She couldn't have been positive otherwise she wouldn't have stumbled to get out what she wanted to say in the beginning so she took a considerable risk. Also, unlike her sister, she has a great trust in Snape and I'm interested to find out why.

I find Bella and Snape's interaction between one another to be quit interesting. She obviously has a great dislike for Snape and I find it slightly ironic that the two people Harry hold most responsible for Serious' death hate and distrust one another just as much as he does them. :D Snape also seems to see himself as being superior to Bella in my opinion. He basically sits their smiling smugly the whole time Bella rant's away at him and he in the end basically brushes her off as if her words are hardly worthy of hearing. Obviously Bella ends up completely infuriated much to Snape's delight and a lot of readers as well :D

Another point in chapter two that I found particulary interesting is that Wormtail has been sent to Snape's to 'assist' him though I doubt Snape would ever really require assistance let alone from someone such as Wormtail so why exactly is he there? There are quite a number of possibilities none of which would include Wormtail ebing very helpful to SNape I think

• He could have been sent there meerly because the Dark Lord was sick of him (wouldn't be all that surprising)
• Perhaps the Dark Lord is questioning his loyalty and has set Snape to keep an eye on him

Also where did Wormtail go after Snape returned to Hogwarts at the start of the school year?

What if Wormtail has been sent to spy on Snape? Maybe Voldemort doesn't entirely trust Snape knowing that he's been in Dumbledore's pocket for all those years. All the questions that Bella raises are answered satisfactorily by Snape, but what if Voldemort suspects that Snape IS a double agent but his need is greater for the information he's obviously getting from Snape about the events at Hogwarts...

I can't help but feel that in the end Snape will prove to be a 'goody'. He only ever refers to 'the Death Eaters', never 'us' - maybe he's trying to distance himself from them in his own mind or maybe he does feel that they're below him as demonstrated in his behaviour towards Bella. After all, nobody else (that we know) is managing to act for both sides as convincingly as he is. He is also very clever in the way that he never actually states what the task is that Draco has to perform, but lets Narcissa tell him what has to happen. Is he really in the Dark Lord's confidence as much as he is making out here or is he just very skilled at finding out information without revealing how much he knows?

I know I'm jumping ahead here but when it eventually falls to him to complete the task that Draco couldn't, there seems to be some unspoken suggestion that Dumbledore speaks to Snape through legilimency. Isn't it possible that the plea from Dumbledore isn't to save his own life, but to save that of Draco's by Snape performing his task. To save Dumbledore in those circumstances would not only kill Snape and Narcissa through the breaking of the Unbreakable Vow, but also condemn Draco to certain death through Voldemort anger at him for failing. :wacko:

Now J.K. Rowling is pretty dependent on the use of greek words and figures. Narcissa reminds me of Narcissus, the man who fell in love with his reflection and died. Narcissa, as a person of similar name, we be a person in love with herself. This means that she won't even care of Drako and she may have even made a plan with Voldemort to make Snape make an unbreakable vow. Voldemort must know that he can't trust Snape by now so he is planning on using Drako and Narcissa to get him confessing.

I think Dumbledore knew what the plan that Voldemort had planned for Draco and had already planned everything out with Snape. Because of how they acted on the balcony towards each other. But I am getting ahead of myself sorry. Snape gives good answers to all of Bellas questions but he only covers them to cover himself, they are probably all lies to make himself look good so he can play for both teams. It seems like he likes the attention he is getting for being a spy and he does only think of himself. How do we know that in Snapes mind he would later on down the road be setting all this up so that he could take out Voldemort and put himself as more powerful and take over. I wouldn't put it past Snape, he does have ambition. But anyways, just thought I would share....

I agree with Ankaa that Snape didn't know what the Dark Lord had planned for Draco. In fact, until Narcissa turned up, he may not have known that there was any plan at all. He was just faking it, and the two witches bought his story. They also bought all his excuses for any seemingly disloyal behavior.

Like I've said in another thread, I still don't know why Snape bothered to make the unbreakable vow. Was it because he's afraid of the two witches? Clearly he's not. Because he cares about Draco? He could have looked out for Draco just as well without making the vow. Because he cares about Narcissa and/or wants to impress her? Now that's an interesting thought. Because he wants to startle Bellatrix? Well, he certainly managed to do that, but other than a moment of amusement, what would be the advantage in it?

Shonk brings up another interesting question: What on earth is Wormtail doing at Snape's place? Maybe the Dark Lord was sick of him, as Shonk suggests. Maybe he just wanted a place to stash Wormtail for a while, where someone could keep an eye on him, and Snape couldn't really refuse an order from the Dark Lord. So Snape's making the best of it by tormenting Wormtail, paying him back for the old days when Wormtail was great pals with James, Sirius and Lupin. Absolutely no one would trust Wormtail, including the Dark Lord.

Is Snape ambitious? He's obviously not wealthy, despite the fact that he's a very powerful wizard, so I think he's not really interested in material wealth. Power? Maybe, but there's been no real evidence of that so far. Could he be planning to double-cross both Dumbledore and the Dark Lord? Wow, that would really be an achievement! Could he reasonably expect to defeat the Dark Lord on his own? I don't think so, and I'd bet he doesn't think so, either. I'm sure Snape has a reason for taking all these risks, but I don't know what it is. His motivations remain totally unclear at this point.

As for Narcissa, she may well be vain and self-centered, as her name suggests, but it looks to me like she really cares about Draco so much that she's prepared to risk her life by betraying the Dark Lord in order to try to save him. I don't think she has any other agenda. Draco is her son, after all, and she's his mother.

Okay, I'll go ahead and start from the start. Chapter one comes first!


Chapter One: The Other Minister
I find it very interesting that Fudge, very early in this chapter, apparently acquits Sirius Black.

Yes, it's belated, but JK rather wraps up that loose end in a very dismissive manner, don't you think? Latter, Fudge goes on to tell us about his troubles with the Dementors abandoning Azkaban, and further, now BREEDING out in the open. Troubling on its own, but whats-more... how on Earth does a Dementor breed? Do we want to know?

Rufus Scrimgeor-- I don't really know what to say on him.

And the last interesting tidbit from chapter one... Kingsly Shackbolt is/has been part of the Muggle Priminister 's security forces. This makes him in on that as well as OtP. This could be interesting on some level, or just trivial information.


Chapter Two: Spinner's End
You all have covered this one very well, allow me to point out other little juicy tidbits.

Should we see something in Bella's nonchalant killing of the fox? Suggesting she thought there was an Auror there instead. Likely not, but still, wasn't it interesting? As interesting as her calling Narcissca, “Sissy.”

Also of interest, Server's home. Anyone fascinated that he should live in a dilapidated Muggle district? As Bell a says, “He lives here? Here? In this Muggle Dunghill?”

And then plays in the whole trust issue. I'll say it now, I'm of the camp that puts Snape on Voldermort's side, not the other way around. He puts out a very good argument in his own favor. Especially this.

Further, I say Snape did know of the plan, which was why he agreed to take the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissca. You see, he feels loyalty to her, and I think a certain protectiveness of Draco-- also a doubt in the boy's abilities. Interesting though, that he flinches on the third of that three part vow, to complete Draco's job should he fail...

Ok so I think all of this is very interesting, and I'm soaking it all up. I don't have a lot to say at this point, but I do have to say that I found something very interesting about the first chapter. Why is JKR bringing the Muggle Prime Minister into this? We've gone the whole series without him being mentioned, yet supposedly he's been visited by Fudge at least 2 other times. Why bring him up now if not before? How is the muggle community going be affected or involved in the demise (if there is one) of Voldemort?

I bet she enjoyed killing fuzzy animals as a kid too :P I asumed that Cissy is Narcissa's pet anme and cinsidering the two are sisters they ought to be close . . . which i guess is an interesting point that they are close considering she has been in Azkaban for however many years. So obviously even after everything they obviously still share a close bond of some sort.

I think that has something to do with making people realise just how much the muggles are noticing . . . foreboding I say. I have a suspicion that a their is gonna be a lot of trouble the dgree of secrecy or whateva it's called in the next book.

I found those scenes interesitng as well. I think it might be interesting if Bella and Snape became a couple. ha! That would be hilarious. I got the feeling that Snape knew more than what he was letting on. We've seen how he reacts when he's in a situation where he can't control (think his interactions with Harry) and yet, here he is, smug look, content with himself, totally in control. I thought that maybe he had other orders..maybe from Dumbledore, not sure.

Or, perhaps the Dark Lord sent Wormtail there as a sort of look-out for him, to keep an eye on Snape. Given Snape's double-agent history, I find it hard to believe that Voldermort never caught on to this, or at least suspect. So I thought Wormtail was the look-out.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Shonkie on this one. I think it was for a sense of foreboding, to tell us that Muggles are just as effected by this war (even if they don't know why...) On a whole, I think the chapter was thrown in to give us an outside perspective on events that have transpired and turned up – especially over the summer – so that the readers are caught up before jumping into the current story. It also introduces us to the frightening new Minister of Magic....

Also, geez Shonk, doesn't everyone love torturing and killing small fuzzy critters as children? :naughty:

Yeah, the only purposes that I can see for Chapter 1 are (1) to provide an update on events, and (2) to show us that things have gotten so far out of hand that even muggles have to be told what's going on.

As for Snape living in a "Muggle Dunghill", Spinners End doesn't seem any worse than the setting of No. 12 Grimauld Place, the ancestral home of the pure-blood Black family, which includes Bellatrix. I thought that was how wizards hid themselves from muggles, by living in semi-abandoned slums where no one goes. Or maybe Bella just said that because she loathes Snape.

And as for Wormtail being a look-out for the Dark Lord, absolutely no one can trust Wormtail, and I'm sure Lord V knows it. But possibly LV thought it would be fun to annoy Snape by making him babysit Wormtail. And at the same time it annoys Wormtail by giving Snape endless opportunities to torment him. Is it possible that LV has a sense of humor? (ACtually, it's a lot more likely that JKR has a sense of humor!)

"Why is JKR bringing the Muggle Prime Minister into this?"

JKR says on her site that she came close to using this chapter in Stone, Prisoner and Phoenix. She obviously felt it fitted better here so I don't think it can be of huge significance.



Here's a thought I had when I was half delirious with fever over my septic tonsils (so large pinch of salt required)... what if Harry is the last horcrux??? After all, he was there when both his mother and father were killed, maybe he's all that was available for Voldemort to split his soul into ...and maybe that's why LV's had such an interest in him over the years and won't let anybody else touch him.

I think after Harry's destroyed all the other horcruxes, he'll face up to LV and use Gryffindor's sword to kill himself, thus killing LV too. Voldemort won't realise that Harry's destroyed all the other horcruxes and will think he's won...

I haven't had chance to think this through properly yet, so any arguments for or against gratefully received!

Okay Ankaa here's the thing. At first that was my theory as well (Harry being a horcrux), but then I realized; if Harry was a horcrux, why would Voldie be trying to kill him? I mean unless he didn't know that Harry was a horcrux and did it on accident (though I don't see how that could have happened), I would have thought that he would be trying to be friendly to Harry as opposed to the annual attempts to kill him. Also, Voldie had gone there to kill Harry because Snape had told him about Trelawney's prediction. Though it is possible that Voldie could have made Harry a horcrux on accident and therefore doesn't know, so it would make sense that he is still trying to kill Harry. Does that make sense?




:voldie:

:spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:

Makes total sense, yeah. My only argument against that is that LV THINKS he has all the other horcruxes hidden safely away, so he could afford to lose one. And wouldn't it be worth it to him toget rid of Harry once and for all.....?

I agree. It wouldn't make any sense for LV to deliberately make Harry a horcrux. Why would he choose the kid that the prophecy said would be his enemy?

On the other hand, maybe it could have happened by accident somehow, in which case LV might well decide that Harry was just one horcrux out of seven, and he could do without him.

Inspiration moment!! :lightbulb:

That (above) could be a possible way for the good guys to defeat Voldie! What if they found and destroyed all the other horcruxes and then Harry (if he IS the final horcrux) gives himself up to Voldie *sob*.
Voldie would of course take the opportunity to kill Harry (and if Harry IS the final horcrux) and himself.

I haven't really had the chance to read this over and make sure that what I say sounds sane and not as though I've just been released from the mental hospital *shifts in chair* (disregard that last * comment I did NOT spend the last month in a mental hospital *shifts in chair again and looks around room* Argh! Stop it with the * comments already!) Moving on. To get straight to the point... *bites lip, racks brain* I've lost the point. Oh wait, wait, wait, wait I just remembered! Well not exactly. Any questions or comments would be welcome. (I'll let you know if I remember the REAL point!) :)




:welcome: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :welcome:


:voldie:

OMG I never thought of that! Harry being the final horcrux? He would be the perfect horcrux because he would make sense that he has some of Voldy's powers and no one would want to destroy him except Voldy... No but that would'nt work because Voldemort wants to kill him unless he doesn't KNOW that Harry is the horcrux, maybe he's the horcrux acidentally!!

So I'm guessing that you don't think that either of my theories sound totally insane (especially the second one)? And I have not remembered what my original point was yet.

Oops. *looks sheepish* spam :spam:

But the prophecy DIDN'T say that Harry would be 'the enemy', LV CHOSE to make Harry the enemy - it could have been Neville too remember!

My theory is king of backed up by the fact that harry has so many of LV's powers and was feeling what he was feeling etc, but then again, the only thing that I can see that's against my theory is: would it be possible to make a Horcrux without knowing you've done it? I'm sure Slughorn said somewhere that you have to cast a specific spell to make a Horcrux so maybe that's where it all falls down... :angry:

But then...LV doesn't know the end of the prophecy which is the 'neither can live while the other survives bit' so.....???


My head hurts ....roll on 21st July!!!


(Oh and WOOOOO!! I've just had my very own boxed set of books delivered so I can now go back and check on all my nonsense ideas!)

Reading all this stuff is giving me a headache!!
So I pretty much agree with what Ankaa said.