Hello all,
I just wanted to tell you about Nev's 1st day at school (puppy class) and voice my opinion and concerns.
I was very proud of him as he sat perfect perfectly each time he was told, as he knew he'd be rewarded with a treat. He was very nice to the people there wanting to say hello..and there was no aggression to the other dogs there (though its early days)
He was getting very anxious as he wanted to go sniff all the dogs..I think to play with them (I hope thats what it was) but I was able to keep him sat with me in return for treats as we watched the other dogs.

I'm concerned about how harsh they are with there jerks on the lead etc as I see it as a form of punishment though its prob not I dont like people being rough with my dog. She (the trainer) also wasn't happy about nevilles halti as she thought it was abit loose and i dont have the link..she said he maybe better with one of theres which is a kind of figure 8 that goes over the head and nose but is a lead too. (£11) but Neville didnt seem to like it.
I guess they know what there doing..and to be honest I think its me with the problem not Neville.
I'm concerned that he may want to spend all his time there wanting to get to other dogs..not doing as he's told. And about the training methods ie: the sharp harsh jerks on the lead. I dont want Neville to hate me.
I'm sure many of you have had similar concerns ..or is it just me? Please let me know how you got on and any hints and tips?
Thanks Rob

Well done both of you the first training class can be a bit daunting if you dont know what to expect or how your dog will react , i know i have been there :rolleyes:

Personally i dont agree with any kind of harsh training methods and with Pyr's especially i think they work better and learn more through kinder methods (bribery if need be ):lol: :lol:

A trainer at the classes i took Storm and Akira to jerked her own dog around a hell of a lot and i put in a complaint against her i also said if she ever jerked either of my dogs like that i would put the collar and lead on her and drag her around the hall so she could see how it felt , not what i would recommend you to do but i had a few problems with her and i lost it that one night which was not the right think to do even though i did feel better after oops :rolleyes:

At the end of the day Neville is your dog and you and him have a long road to go down with training , just because the trainer advocated jerking the lead does not mean you have to do it , stick to your guns and use none harsh training methods and i am sure you will be fine , please remember a lot of trainers have not got a clue about the Pyr's personality , some good ones will liosten to you and take on board what you say but sadly some will always have the opinion they are there to be obeyed and use outdated methods in training .

Akira and Storm both sailed through their KC bronze and silver awards and i never used any harsh methods with them at all ever . I even had the odd disagreement with the behaviourist at the club but he respected that i knew my dogs best and he soon realized that i could handle Storm in classes no matter what happened .

Storm had a few issues when he came here and one of them was reacting badly to other dogs which had been mistaken by his previous owners as aggression when in fact it was nothing more than a lack of socialization , he had never been allowed to meet and greet other dogs just hauled away from them and the result was he got very excited when he saw other dogs for a while , he used to rear up on his back legs shouting his mouth off , which is obviously not something you want a 12 stone (very overweight )Pyr going ballistic on the end of a lead can be quite frightening for other people who dont know him .

I know a lot of trainers who would have jerked his lead and shouted NO at him but what worked for me to start with was calmly turning around and going in the opposite direction with no comment at all , once Storm realized that all the barking and lunging did him no good at all , i moved onto the "Watch Me " which took a fair bit of practise but soon paid off as he soon learned that watching me was a good thing to do as it always meant a tasty treat when his eyes met mine :D Once we had that sussed the next step was getting him to realize that if he sat calmly watching me he was allowed to say hello to other dogs .

Vera gave me some good advice that i have never forgotten when i took on Storm , and that was not to challenge him , he is heavier , faster and stronger than me . I have got a very well behaved happy and well mannered dog these days and i have never had to be hard on him at all , i know a lot of people think i am too soft with my dogs but my methods worked for me .

Now i have written another book i will say good luck and if you have a look through this section i am sure you might find some of my old posts interesting when i have had hiccups along the way , training Pyr's is very much a one step forward 3 steps back exercise sometimes but it is so worth sticking to your guns and being consistant , once you have a mutual respect for each other it does get easier , earning Storms trust took me a wee while but once i had it i can honestly say he is better behaved than Akira who i have had from a 8 week old pup , mind you i do put a lot of that down to here being a very stubborn girlie :lol:

Fiona xx

Edited to add I could never get the hang of a figure eight lead and have always used Gentle leaders on my 2 as i find they give me better control over both dogs which is a plus when i have to walk them both together i still havent trusted anyone else to walk Storm yet and i find them a better fit than a Halti , which for some strange reason always seems to slip up onto my dogs eyes . Use what you and Neville are comfortable with and what works best for you

Hi Rob,

Congrats on the first school day with Nev :D

I havnt really got much advice to give really coz I have never taken Monty to puppy classes (something I do regret I might add). Sorry.

I agree with Fiona though on the halti matter - just use what you feel comfortable with - I changed Monty to a stop pull harness coz he hates anything on his face.

And he is still sleeping after the events today :D :D

Sorry, but never assume that they know what they are doing... may dog trainers don't have a clue...!!!

If you are not entirely happy in that class, don't go back and find one that is more suitable.

I don't agree with harsh corrective training methods at all. In fact, last night, I was one of the very few people that gave soft gentle cues (commands) for Troy and he had no problem following them. I don't do lead jerks either or similar stuff!

Do you have an apdt class in your area (www.apdt.co.uk)? I am a member of the apdt and we abide by their code which means we use gentle and positive training methods! Particularly with a powerful breed like a pyr, you don't want to use anything else!

And Fiona is quite right: 99% of trainers have no idea about a pyrenean's personality... You can't force them to do anything and if you try, you'll lose their trust!

My bottom line is: if you are unhappy in that class for whatever reason - and particularly if it is due to their training methods - tell them and find somewhere else that uses methods that you feel comfortable with.

Vera

PS. A little situation from last night illustrating how little many trainers understand doggie communication:

Little dog had to do recall by waiting in sit position until called. Puppy got up, owner was told to put her back into the sit and tell her to wait "like you mean it". The owner gave a very sharp "wait" and walked off again. Puppy got up again, owner walked it back... puppy shook herself (like they do when they are wet - not shiver with fear). That should have been the first cue to the trainer that the pup was worried and didn't really know what was expected of her. Owner told her sharply again to wait... Puppy got up again... Owner walked her back, puppy yawned... Second cue to trainer that the puppy is getting pretty stressed now... But she was told again sharply to sit and wait. Puppy got up again... got walked back again and owner was told not to give command until puppy looks at her. Puppy looked the other way actively avoiding eye contact... Both the owner and trainer wondered why she wasn't looking at her and saw it as being disinterested...

By that time, I could have shouted at them "for god's sake, can't you see that this pup hasn't got a clue what she is supposed to do... she keeps telling you to calm down and is appeasing constantly (shaking, yawning, avoiding eye contact) to stop you telling her off and scaring her... ". I didn't... because that would have been my last class in that club otherwise... :ph43r: , but it is so frustrating watching classes where trainers just have no idea what the dogs are saying and try to force them into things they can't understand (because they haven't been trained properly) or they can't cope with.

:o Vera you must have more self control than me or maybe not as big a mouth ? :lol: :lol:

It is so frustrating when you can see a dog is totally confused and are not sure what they are supposed to be doing and when you see the signs of stress as the owners get frustrated it just makes it worse .

Trying to find the right classes to go to can be very much trail and error , Rob i forgot to say i had to really look around in my area for a good club i tried 3 before i was happy with the one i took Storm too , poor Akira was the guinea pig for the others :rolleyes:

The club i eventually took them both 2 was a really good club apart from one trainer who as i said was just too fond of jerking her dog around for my liking in fact i complained about her a couple of times and after one incident i wrote a letter of complaint to the club and she was moved out of the silver class , which we were in at the time as she really did not have a clue and was very cheeky about Storm being overweight and slow to respond to commands sometimes , which to me was not a problem as he did as i asked him and yes ok he was a bit slower than some other dogs but he did what i asked without any kind of harsh treatment at all .

There is a huge difference in the level of obedience you will get from some other breeds that are well trained and the level you get with a well trained Pyr . I think that sticks out to me especially as i had a very well trained Dobe , my Taz would do anything i asked him to do 20 times on the trot , his recall was perfect , i hardly got a command out of my moth before he responded his bum used to hit the floor at a great rate when he was asked to sit and i remember laughing at the difference with Akira when i asked them to sit Taz's bum was on the floor straight away but Akira used to do what we called the big mamma shuffle so it took longer for her bum to hit the floor :lol: :lol:

After training Taz and getting excellent results , going on to train Akira then Storm was a huge challenge for me but i can honestly say i enjoy it very much it is a great feeling when you get them to respond to you but i think it is important that we feel relaxed and happy while training and if we get a bit stressed then take a break and do it later , as our feeling of stress and anxiety go straight down the lead and our Pyr's being such sensitive souls feel it and wonder whats going on .

Apart from that one trainer at the club the other trainers were great and once they realized i was not just making excuses as to why my 2 would not respond in the way most other dogs would they relaxed and helped me out a lot ,i have seen trainers trying to get them to play by grabbing a toy waving it about in the air using a high pitched tone to ask "oh look what have i got ? " and with both my dogs they just got a look as if to say " and your point is? " Akira who is quite fizzy and will play sometimes just looked puzzled and Storm just lay down and looked the other way which caused much hilarity in the class but proved my point :lol: :lol:

You know your dog best and any trainer that makes you feel uncomfortable will only add to what can be a stressful situation anyway so its really worth either being straight with them and telling them how you want to train Neville or finding somewhere else where you will both be happier i suppose it depends on how confident you are saying what needs to be said ;)

Fiona xx

Thanks for the replys.

I'm reluctant to go again..mainly due to the fact I dont want to jerk his lead the way they do..I dont think its hard enough to hurt the dog..but enough to make its head snap around.
They seem insistant on the belief that we are the boss then the kids and at the bottom the dogs in the pecking order..and that maybe true..but it seems there way of establishing this is to be extra firm which to me seems harsh. Even if it doesn't hurt it must be very unpleasant

Also if I go back again I have to pay the remainder of the balance for the course..which seems silly if I'm unhappy after the 1st visit.

I'm thinking of trying the training myself, it may take longer but I feel confident we'll get there in the end, using nothing but possotive methods ie: treats for good, ignored/nothing for bad.

I had a look at www.apdt.co.uk for trainers near me but the closest is still too far away :(

Thanks again Rob

I trained Taz myself after a bad experience in class Rob so i am sure you will be fine as long as Neville still get plenty of socialization with other dogs as that is a very important part of training for any dog , but particularly our Pyr's :D

Shame the APDT class is too far away but i am sure you will both be fine , and we are always here to help if we can :D

Fiona xx

You could still contact that apdt trainer, she/he might know of a good training club in your area... Vera

I think on a possotive note..please correct me if I'm wrong..but Nevilles very good already, the main areas are Recall, walking nicely on a lead..he already knows how to sit etc and is good with other dogs.

That doesnt seem alot to do myself, and I'm not ashamed to ask you guys for help if it gets hard.

I feel quite possotive about it the more I think on it.

What areas do you think I should prioritise?

Thanks Rob

[/QUOTE]You could still contact that apdt trainer, she/he might know of a good training club in your area... Vera [QUOTE]

Missed that post great idea!

You are right that the main thing with any dog, particularly though with a pyrenees are socialisation, walking on lead and recall! But don't forget... just because he does it now, doesn't mean that you can relax... You must continue to socialise him regularly with lots of new people, dogs, situations... and you must keep up all the training. It is an ongoing thing! If you stopped socialising him now, you could end up with the same problems as a totally unsocialised dog!

Neville is coming to an age soon where he might well forget all his training - at least for a while. Jesse had a couple of weeks of that at around 7 months old! He soon got back to normal, but many puppies have this "teenage" phase for much longer. Until he is fully grown and mentally mature (about 3 years old), you can't really relax with the training. :o

Just keep at it, keep doing what you are doing now and you'll be just fine. Classes would definitely be a bonus, but are not the one and only way to get a well behaved and socialised dog. :)

Vera

Great news!!!!!!!!!

I did as recommended up there and phoned the apdt trainer that was closest (but still away off) and it turns out the premises they use are alot closer to me (30 min drive) .

They invited me down so I went tonight and got there just after 18:30pm and stayed for the hour to watch. I have to say they were very kind and I saw no negative treatment atall.
The next course starts the 30th Nov so I'll give that one ago instead.

I have to say I was impressed at the different training methods & even more at the relaxed atmosphere when I walked in! It seems both dog and dog owners were having a good time learning, and so I think Neville will enjoy it there! :D

Thanks for that Rob
:D

May I ask who the apdt trainer is? Perhaps I know them from the apdt email list... :)

Sure this is her website, she's called Deborah Gornall

http://www.tinkleburypapillons.co.uk/

Thanks again

I'm glad you found a good trainer! I've been in some bad training classes, and they were worse than useless.

I would agree that it's important to have your dog see you as the boss, but there are way better ways to do that than jerking on the leash! For example, making sure he goes out the door after you, or having him wait a couple minutes before getting his food.

I use a martingale collar on Walter. It seems to work really well for him.

I found this thread really interesting.

I never have done any training with my pyr; he just seems to understand english and for the most part wants to cooperate and when he doesn't want to cooperate it's never been an issue for me. He doesn't let me trim his nails, but he loves the ladies down the street :rolleyes: , so he goes there :D My pyr is about 8 now and his place in the family is rock solid and one that just works with us perfect - I guess we are very lucky.

But, I rescued a pitbull about 2 years ago and when we got her she was 4 months old. She was food and treat aggressive at the time, but got over it as there was always too many treats for her to go through anyway. Once she realized she would never be depraved her behavior changed dramatically.

I did training with my pit and the first thing the trainer taught us was to get our dog's attention and how to keep it. The classes were very quiet as we worked strictly with hand signals and it was extremely effective.

The trainer there did work with individuals and her individual work mostly involved aggression problems.

I really felt for you Rob reading this and I know it has been quite sometime since your post; I hope things got better.

rad