Greetings.
I wanted to start a thread to discuss on what we would like to get in our 8th ed book.
It is commonly known that our curent book is abit of a let down compared to our 6th ed book. (There were some positives though).

Here's a list of changes I would like to see in our next book.

1. Animosity
-Tests are taken after charge moves.
-Return the animosity chart to how it worked in 6th ed. (i.e first roll a 1 then you roll to see what happens)

2. Quell animosity
-Units take D3 wounds instead of D6.

3. Magic items
-Battle axe of the Last Waaagh! - 85pts
-Ulag's akk'rit axe - Always +1 str.
-Warboss Ironclaw's Waaagh cleava - 85pts
-Backstabba's blade - 20pts
-Skull Wand - 30pts
-Bring Back Krumpa's Club of Crumpin (No armur save weapon)
-Porko's Pigstikka - +2 Str instead of +1.
-Armour of Gork - 35pts.
-Bring Back Drog's Dead 'Ard Armour (1+ Armour save that cannot be improved)
-Bring Back Armour of Mork (Armour and MR(2) - 35pts)
-Amulet of Protectyness - 20pts
-Effigy of Mork - 30pts
-Bring Back magical War Paint (Savage Orc 5+ ward - 20pts)
-Maad's Map - 15pts
-Staff of Sneaky Stealin - 40pts.
-Gorks Waaagh Banner - 20pts
-Rowdy Grott's Big Red Raggedy banner - 45pts, and Immune to Panic instead of re-roll panic.
-Spider banner - 25pts
-Bad Moon on a Stick - 35pts

3. Magic
-Any Goblin units of 20 models or more generate PD and DD like in 6th ed.

4. Characters
-Goblin/Night Goblin Big Bosses are a 2-1 Hero choice.
-Chariots don't take up special slots
-The Giant Spider and The Great Squig Causes Fear and are both 35pts.
-BSB works like current army books

5. Core
-Orc, Arrer and Savage Orc command cost are 4/8/10 (Mus/Standard/Boss)
-Goblins and Night Goblin command costs are 3/6/6.
-Big'Un's upgrade for Orcs and Savage orcs are +2 pts.
-Goblins and Night Goblins are 2pts base. Plus 1/2 a pt for short bows with each. (The new Skaven book sees the return of Half points)
-Wolf Riders are 10pts base
-Spider Riders are 12pts base
-Snotlings are 15pts a base

6. Special
-Boar Boyz and Savage Boar Boyz get a 4pt decrease
-Big'Un upgrade is 3pts.
-Black orcs regain Quell animosity and have 2 attacks base. 14pts base.
-Goblin Chariots are a 2-1 Special Slot

7. Rare
-Both Troll upgrades are +10pts.

Okay there we go. Thats somethings I would like to see. :D
What about you?

cheers.

I'd like to see an official change NOW. We know that's not happening anytime soon. Oh well.

Great write up. You hit all the key points. Compared to how the other armies are your point values aren't unreasonable.

The main point I see is that Orc&Goblin players have to fight to make a competitive list now and even then our list are still "mediocre."

My very first army was Skaven. I loved the guys not many people played them they were underrated (minus the cheese list most used with a large number of shooty things) and I loved it. Rumour came around Skaven were getting a new book, in 09 (it was 05 when I started them, 08 when I heard the rumour) so I sold my beloved skaven army which lead me to many victories.

Orcs and goblins are underrated. We dont have many great things. Our rules are showing their age and the book wasn't that good to begin with. So naturally I began gathering my vampire counts army to sell (once I realized how unnaturally good they were) and decided to head for lower ground, so to speak. The new skaven army book was around the corner. I had a choice to make- I needed a new army. Skaven, yes I loved them, I served the horn rat well, but it wasn't my style. I wanted to kick heads him, bash skulls. Skaven were not designed to do that. Orcs and Goblins... however...

I came here and lurked. For months, reading, watching. Then one day I made up my mind. I saw some of the people at underempire crying about our new rules, which actually made the list even CHEAPER in points and gave them a lot of what they wanted, and they still complained. I was in shock. How could they denounce this? We are sitting on crap for rules, supposedly an upgrade from out old book, and they complain about cheaper troops?

We don't got good stuff. We have alright stuff. But by golly, I love our army, and I love the models. I am gonna stick with the ladz no matter what happens. I hope people read this and remember why they started playing this game. It's not always about winning, it's about having fun!

ORCS ARE DA BEST! :D HERE'S TO A BRIGHTER FUTURE AND (HOPEFULLY SOON) A BETTER RULEBOOK!

I have to agree mostly with what Mike Oliver said. You know, i just want our army to be in the middle of the pack. Not too good and not too bad. Right now i love the fact that i really have to think out my army lists and strategies just to be competitive. What bothers me though is the fact that my bro plays VC, and the best i can do is draw. I've only ever beaten my bro once since the new rules came out........it's sad. Mind you i have a blast playing every time, my bro is the one that got fed up of winning without even trying lol

To go back on topic: in this rulebook, I think Matt Ward messed up a lot of things, and my personal opinion of him is that he's a joke.Big Red Banner should be immune to panic for that unit like Oliver mentioned, Mork's totem shouldnt be restricted to Orcs only. Dont get me started on the Magic Armour section

Spells in little Waaagh need a reduction in casting cost (the spells cost too much and the miscast table is rediculous). Goblin chariots and Big Bosses should be 2 for 1............you know what, im already fed up of writing this article. All im asking is to make Goblins a freakin blast again. YOu know they're still fun to play, but for crying out loud, Goblin hordes just arent what they use to be. Matt absolutely killed the gobbies. That's my opinion, and ive been pissed since this editions book has been released.

Ahhh......it's been a few months and time for this type of a thread to come up again. Yes, this has been discussed quite a bit.

Personally, I think that the idea that OnG stuff should hurt us as well as help us is not a good idea. There are a few things that should be toned down or removed.
-All magic items that have a chance of hurting the user should not do so (horn and itty ring)
-Quell Animosity should be d3
-When you call Waaagh!, a "1" doesn't hurt you. Also, you should be immune to Psychology for the round you do it.
-If you roll a "1", you should have to auto-charge, like frenzy if there is a unit in range.

Those changes still hamper us, but don't cripple us.

Besides that, there should be a few other changes
-Black Orcs become either stubborn or Immune to Fear or get dropped in points
-Big 'uns become cheaper
-Boar boyz (both kinds) need to be cheaper
-All goblins should start off with spears, as well as hand weapons for free
-Give some sort of rule that one goblin unit gets a free magic banner somehow. Maybe it's if you take a Goblin Warboss or maybe it's just a rule, but that's the only way you will actually see those goblin banners in the game
-Make the spells cheaper
-Make the miscast table not so nasty (or bring back that ignore miscast item)

You know, with just those changes, we would be doing a lot better, but not crazy.

I am in agreement with all that has been said so far. Yes we could do with an upgrade but we are Orcs&Golbin players and we can live with it :lol: thats what make us so unique as a group of poeple. We don't complain much and we accept what we are given. We never go out to smash are opponents we don't always make cheesy lists, we play for fun and thats why we play O&G.

Skar (2c)

i think units armed with missile weapons and in range of the enemy should not test for animosity as the orcs would probably be too preoccupied with the prospect of killing 'umies and such to bother with squabbling :lol: Not sure if that would turn out fair in game terms though, just a thought.

if they would restore some of the things that pee-ed me off big time about the 7th ed. i would be happy.

porko pigstikka: not rank BONUS, but justs ranks.

snots.....work like a real swarm again

wolf riders.....stop messing with the shields and light armour. (if you know what i mean)

Big Uns.... normal points again.

Black orc.... let us choose, and save points

This would be terrific if it would ever be implemented.

On the whole I quite like the book, things that immediately jump out at me are the points cost of units.

I think just about every unit across the board needs to be made cheaper in varying degrees. Trolls, war machines, fanatics and maybe hoppers and chariots (although the 2 gobbo chariots for 1 slot should never have been removed especially with the way chariots/US and negate ranks works now) seem to be spot on for what they're worth although stone and especially river troll upgrades certainly need cheapening.

Change the thrice-damned idiotic miscast table, O&G magic is not nearly powerful enough to warrant such punishment. Shutting down magic phases is something we can do quite well and relatively cheaply but it would be nice to have a bit more of an even playing field if we chose to go magic heavy.

A few more magic banners and champions in units being able to directly influence animosity results would be great as well.

Great thoughts in the above...here's my (2c)

I think comparing how the High Elves gained a MASSIVE amount of punchy with little, or in some cases no, point costs increase is a good indicator of how the O&G should be approached.

+Bring back about 50% of the slashed magic items from 6th list...
+Animosity back to a roll of 1 and then chart...
+Add in that units already in melee receive first strike when the Waaagh is called along with unengaged units moving.
+The General, his unit, and any unit within 6" get the auto 6 when Waaagh is called.
+Units rolling a 1 when Waagh'ed don't squabble. It's a 1 per game ability, give it some TEEF!
+Figure out a way to get an Orc mounted unit down to 2+ armor save...heck, give any Big Un unit the option to upgrade to Heavy Armor...
+go back to 2 goblin chariots for 1 slot
+allow more range on who can mount on a Wyvern...they're not all that spectacular
+give Giants +1 T or +1 Wds...and bump the cost to 275 if so

Just some random thoughts to bring things more in line with the more recent lists.

I like making giants T6! They would be a true force to be reckoned with.

I don't know why people want you to roll a 1 and then the old Animosity chart? The new way is much simpler and better for us overall. That is if you consider rolling a 6 a good thing. I do.

I DON'T want to see wolf chariots becoming 2-for-1 again. It pretty much meant that every list had 4 spear chukkas and 4 wolf chariots. I was very tired of seeing those lists. I want some variety.

Not if Borcs, Bboyz savage and otherwise got cheaper/better :)

Dark Elves got a rulebook update long before their new book came out. Why can't we? How do we go about doing this? I want us ladz to make change!

I suppose we could send a giant list to GW with all the thing we want. As long as it gets to Phil Kelly (writes many of the powerfull army books these days) then we shall be fine. Hows about it ladz :yarr!:

Just a long shot but it woul be funny :lol:

Skar (2c)

I want boar chariots with an extra boar upgrade.

I Like the ideas that backstabba has given but I wouldn't make orcs 4 pts that would be bad in my oppinion orcs would be very very powerfull if they could have a 4+ save for 5pts, but I would make both kind of goblins back 2pts or maybe 2,5pts.

Greetz
G

I like some god points that you all have given.

The Giant Spider and The Great Squig Causes Fear
That would be a god thing to go with. It's a scary mount.

Simplify Giant Spider and Great Squig
Do as it's done in many new books. Make it a mount with no-multi-wounds.

Giant Spider
7 4 - 4 4 1 3 3 7 Poisoned Attacks, Cause Fear, Wallcrawler

Great Squig
3d6 4 - 5 4 1 4 3 5 Killing Blow, Immune to psychology, Booing, Hate Dwarfs

Animosity
Roll for animosity before Terror and stupidity tests are taken!

Boar Boyz and Savage Boar Boyz get a 4pt decrease
Seems as a god change

Black Orcs become Immune to Fear
That would be something that would make them worth their points.

porko pigstikka: not rank BONUS, but justs ranks
YES! But make the cost 50 pts. Maximum 10 attacks including normal A for character!!!

allow more range on who can mount on a Wyvern
Let the wyvern be ridden by Big Bosses, War Bosses and Great Shamans

How to make a diffrence between Black Orc, Savage Orc and Normal Orc Boss
Black Orcs have Heavy Armour, Quell Animosity.
Add Brawler: Black Orcs always fights with anything from weapon, to boot to fist, just to bring down the opponent. Rulewise: On foot the black orc gets +1 to armoursave or +1 Attack. Choose one in the begining of the combat phase.

Savage Orc have Frenzy, Warpaint.
Add Tattoos: Give the savage orc some Tattoos as ogres have big names and deamons have powers.
Warpaint Tattoo: 4+ wardsave
Tattoo of Mork: Magic Resistance 1
Tattoo of Gork: +1S May never turn down a challenge
Frenzy Tattoo: Never loose frenzy and +2 Attacks instead of 1
Tattooed Scars: Cause Fear

Normal Orc has nothing funny or special!
Add Nomadic Tribe Lord: May take Boar Boys and Boar Chariots as Core choice (savage orc boar boys are still Special choice). FREE Boar mount upgrade!!!

Little Waaagh!
Reduce spell levels! Gaze 4+, Bursta 7+, Fix it 7+, Foot of Gork 8+, Hand of Gork 8+, Mork Want's ya 9+
BUT Most Of All: Bring back 'Ere we go spell and remove Mork Want's Ya. Thats a sneaky spell and it helps the goblins do some tricks.

Banners
A banner that will make the unit Immune to psychology when charging. 25 points
Will help the low leadership to charge fear causing units.

A banner that can make a unit reroll Animosity rolls. Second roll counts! 25 points
Will help boar boys to be more effective.

NEW Magic Item
Squighound: On foot only characters. The character has an "intelligent" squig as his pet. When in combat roll D6.
1. The squig gets loose. Use the "Wild Squigs" rule from where he stands. The squig is gone!
2-6. Add 2 WS4 S5 attacks
When the owner dies, immidetly use Wild Squigs rule. 25 points

Da boss's chariot. Character mounted in chariot. The chariot is a bit bigger, a bit more killy and have a bit more spikes on it. May reroll its Impact Hits and Impact Hits have Killing Blow (or reroll to wound) +1 armoursave. 50 points


NEW Magic Weapon
Loonies Ball & Chain: Nightgoblins only. Owner gets Immune to psychology and Stupidity. May not use shield or be mounted. Roll a D6 first round of every combat phase.
1. User do D6 S5 attacks to his unit or himself if alone. Armour piercing.
2-5. User do D6 S5 attacks to opponent or oppoents unit. Armour piercing.
6. User do D6 WOUNDS to opponent or opponents unit. Armour piercing.
35 points.

Bow of Badlands: Goblins or savage orcs only. Counts as Bow but use characters S and add +1 to BS. 10 points. Can be taken as a second magic weapon!


Battleaxe of the last waaagh!
If it still costs 100 points it would be counted as a Greatweapon (+2S if no ranks) or give +1 A and S for every rank, not just rank bonus.


NEW Arcane Item
Baleful Mask: used as Gaze of Mork spell with power level 5. 25 points.

Wurrzags Bonewood Staff: Roll 2D6, thats the power level and the hits of S4 magic missile to enemy unit within 24". On a roll of double 1's roll on miscast table. If 12 is rolled its total power and can not be dispelled. 60 points

NEW Magic Armour
Sizzlas Magic Net: Nightgoblins only. Opponents looses d3 attacks in challange against user of this to a minimum of 1 attack. Counts as a shield. 25 points.

Nobblas Elmet: Goblins only. Add +1 to armoursave and give a 6+ wardsave. 20 points.

Trolls
6 3 1 4 5 3 1 3 4 Cause Fear, Regenerate, Stupid, Wargear
Make them S4 and T5 and add Wargear rule: before combat starts use either Sharp Claws (armourpiercing), bone (additional hand weapon) or a bit of tree (great weapon)

- Gobbos should cost 2 1/2 pts + 1/2 point upgrades (like ne skaven slaves) . 3 is to expensive, 2 to cheap.
- Black orcs requires some rule that makes them elite - nowadays they have elite cost, no elite rules, get eaten by other armies core. Fear immunity or/and stubborn ?
- Pig boys cheaper, big un upgrade 4-5 pts.
- infantry big un upgrade cheaper. C'mon its 100 pts per unit of 25 boyz ;) to get what ? ws 4 - when all new stuff has 5 ws, so 3 or 4 doesn't make a difference. 4 str - okay that is a nice bonus but not worth 4 pts.
- trollish types cheaper. 8-10 pts per model, or make it simillar to chaos marks - 30-400 pts per unit.
- Giant: thick skin 5+ armour save or 10 wounds or T6. It's a giant - its gigantic, like a dragon!
- gobbo bosses 1-2 per slot, or additional gobbo heroes for each 1000pts of army cost - like it was in 6th edition.

- why a bow for savage boyz cost 2 pts ?
- more than 2 magic armours ;)
- additional special slots - HE got them, why not greenies ;]

We should have a petition thread and get everybody on the board to sign on if possible and send the results to GW including some of the recommended changes and a "Please keep that burk who wrote this book as far away from any future updates as possible" note.

Cheaper Boar boys and savage boar boys for sure.
Our Wyvern could do with a little more backbone too.
One item that allows a Shaman an extra dice or two in the magic phase or allows us to save unused ones.
Make Blorcs a load cheaper or make them true elites.
Armed to Da Teef is broken at the moment. You can give your boys a shield and extra hand weapon and choose between the two at the start of combat for around the same cost as Blorcs. The only thing Blorcs have more is a great weapon. Given that our Initiative sucks how often would you choose that.
Quell Animosity should be an area effect. Its a useless bit of fluff for blocks of Blorcs right now.
More bound items. I want to have a magic phase for a change that doesn't hope for a double six. (Oh yeah got my first of those last night).
Either make something unbreakable or give us an item that does it for a unit.
Oh yes and fire attacks to give us a little leg up when facing the undead.
I agree with all of the above too.

Cheers

Add the following ramblings:

1) Size Matters : Expendable- units led by goblins can shoot at units in close combat with snotlings. Led by orcs @ goblins. Led by black orcs @ orcs

2) Size Matters: LOS - snotlings don't cover gobbos, who don't cover orcs, etc

3) Lords/Hero should have access to a crossbow(BO)/bow(orc)/shortbow(goblin). At BS3 it won't make a difference but at least you get a laugh.

4) Black Orcs on boars - (maybe 0-1). A +2S weapon would help or (maybe just -1 to AS)

5) Let us target Fanatics again...

6) Some sort of flaming attack. Maybe a spell or a magic item. The humies know how, we know betterz !!

Rules for the armybook should be clear. And playtesting some units would help .... ** cough ** hoppers/flee ** cough ***


:P

I pretty much agree with what everyone has said whether it's better Black Orcs, more logically priced Gobbos, more magic armours, taking hits during a Quell Animosity, etc, but we don't want to end up with a broken book full of cheese to be sure.

I don't know why somebody can't be more original and do something totally new with the Orc book, break with normal conventions....

I would prefer to see shields on Arrer boys.... Orcs are primarily a simplistic creature who loves close combat, I don't see hanging back and shooting as an Orc thing, they might use a bow to randomly twang at the enemy as they advance to get into 'krumpin', so they should be like normal Orc boys and have choppa and shield, obviously they are more expensive than a normal boy because of the bow....

On the subject of the 2 Gobbo wolf chariots, I thought they should be redone as light chariots like the TK chariot, so as to justify the 2 for 1 slot, I think when we all look at a Gobbo chariot we see a weaker less heavy version than the one Orcs use, I think a light chariot suits a wolf chariot better, it's lighter in all respects to an Orc chariot.

On Boar boys, I would like to see a radical new idea where they don't use a spear but they use their choppa on boar back and the choppa rule counts... I just don't see an Orc sitting up on the back of a boar emulating the poise of a knight of the other races where it's got a spear couched as though it's a lance, I see a boar as little more than a means for the Orc to get at you quicker, they fly at you from afar and dive off the boar onto your face and smash it into the floor.... It could be a way to re envisage the Boar boy and an excuse to do new models that look super hard swinging a huge choppa around.

Apart from that, yeah, I second everyone else, when we look at what other armies got for nothing.... Yeah we're looking at you High and Dark Elves, I don't see how an army with lots of inherent weaknesses can't have some little bonuses, the aim is not to have your weaknesses taken away, which is what happened with the High Elf whingers, the aim is to work with your weaknesses but have some bonuses too.

:soap:

We have this little chat every now and again, but nothing will come of it...

Just a couple of things off the top of my mind...

New Unit-
15 pts each
Forest Goblin Bat Riders
Special Rules - Fly, Skirmish, Flamin' Balls
Equipment - Shield, Spears

Flamin' Balls - Once per game, the Bat Riders can drop Flamin' Balls on top of the enemy during the shooting phase. Only 1 Bat Rider model has to fly over the enemy in order for all models in the unit to drop their balls. The Flamin' Balls does D3 S3 shooting hits on the enemy with a -2 to the armour save. The balls are counted as flaming attacks.

New rules-
Doom Diver
80 pts
The Doom Diver starts off with 10 crew. Nominate how many goblins you want to shoot in the shooting phase (up to a maximum of 3) and deduct the amount from the crew. The Doom Diver can deviate the final position as normal by up to D3". The Doom Diver must be manned by a minimum of 3 crew.

Guess the range for each Goblin being hurled. If a misfired is rolled, consult the following table:

1) All the Goblins try to get on the Doom Diver at the same time. The Doom Diver collapses and is removed from play along with its crew.
2-3) A cheeky goblin tries to push in amongst the lines and picks a fight with the Goblin that's ready to be shot. The Doom Diver cannot shoot this turn nor the next.
4-5) The Goblin is shot straight up in the sky, never to be seen again. The shot has no effect but can be shot freely in the next turn. Any remaining goblins to be shot this turn are shot as normal.
6) Something goes horribly wrong whilst the goblin is in mid-air. The goblin is split into 2 parts, deviating D3" at a random direction from the shots final position. Any remaining goblins to be shot this turn are shot as normal.

Now that is a geniune greekskin way of looking at the doom diver.

Honestly 2.5 points for Common goblins and +1 point for shield isnt unreasonable.

2 point night goblins.

Cheaper boar boyz.

Armed to da teef actually works proper. Add stubborn.

Animosity D3

Oh, and add a variant to the Goblin hero rules. All Goblin heroes plus 1 leadership.

"I'm da Boss now!"
When Orcs aren't around Goblins love to try to mimic their larger counter parts and acheive great success on the battlefield.

When no friendly Orcs are present (Orc Regiment, Black Orcs, Savage Orc, Boar boyz etc), your character receives +1 leadership. If an Orc is present, Goblins tend to not want to draw attention to themselves by rivaling their warboss, and recieve -1 Leadership.



P.S. Don't let this die! Durichi.net or however it's spelled got their book changed! Let's get OURS CHANGED! :o

I agree with Mike Oliver. Pointy Ears (Druchii.net) did it, why shouldnt we?

We should insist on these with large numbers of users. We may swarm on Warseer altogther to cry loud to other races. Or maybe swarm on GW forums.

I think admins and mods should organize us.

I dont understand why GW keep ignoring the love of goblins and keep weakining gobbo rules. If they wanna sell more goblin models they should listen to O&G players.

If army consists of no Orcs (units, characters, bullies);
"I'm da Boss now!" +1 Ld to characters or units
"Dis is m'flag!" 1 unit of goblin/n.goblin warriors may take a magical banner up to 50pts.

Okay I am loving what has been said for far. If only all of it was to be real. The world would be a better place. Some of my favourite things that have been said

That is genius, it is the exact way a goblin doom diver would work in real life. Whilst stil having a balanced rules set.

Another thing I liked

That is awsome. I would love to see something like this in a future O&G book.

I also agree with everything else that has been said. Things such as goblin chariots becoming 2-1. I would love to see forest goblins there are an idea that appeals to me. Sadly I a to young to have been luckey enough to play them i last editions rules. As a big Goblin fan I would like to see a pionts reduction. I am an afraid I moan about it to poeple alot. Thought I might share my moans

okay I am going to compare a Night Goblin with a Skaven Clanrat.

1) The Night Goblins has a measely ws 2 compared to the clanrats ws 3
2) The Clanrats have the strengh in number Ld rule
3) The Clanrats are now cheaper!!!!!!
4) Clanrats come with light armour base
5) Although Night Goblins have bows they are rubbish compared to the awsome weapons the Skaven have access to

You see my point. I play my friend who collects Skaven quite often with my all Night Goblin list. I just can't win :huh:

Something I would also like to see would be a boost to normal Troll. The amount of times I have failed my stupidity just when I need to pull of a charge is not funny :angry:

I am going to keep track on this thread for sure there are some awsome idea mentioned in here. Maybe just maybe if we moaned enough around the global community we might just get what we want like Dose Stinkin Elvf's

Skar (2c)

Somebody's gotta do it...

Did any of you actually play with the pre-revision 6th ed Dark Elves? It seems like you're all convinced that our current list plays equally bad, and in that you're wrong. We will never be as bad off as the Dark Elves were, for one simple reason: they're expensive T3 guys. We're cheap T4 guys. That goes a long god damn way! At the end of the day we will still be fielding a lot of hard-to-kill guys. The elves, on the other hand, need much more fine tuning to work properly (as you can see from the current books, they still haven't gotten it right).

One major change to the DE list was cheapening the warriors. This was done to give people a points break to compensate for the elites being slightly overcosted. Here's the great part: we've got that mechanism built into our army list already! Sword & board Orcs for 6 pts a piece gets you lots of guys and lots of spare points to spend on tougher (more expensive) stuff.

Sure, the list has some problems, but nowhere near enough to warrant a revision. So please, comrades in green - stop complaining and start killing stuff*!
*not me

Cheers!

That the Dark Elves used to be worse off doesn't mean we're still screwed with this book.

And I'm not really interesting in a large quantity of small tweaks to make orcs more viable. Surely there's more interesting stuff you can do to just give them a little edge.

They're supposed to be a horde army, that totally got ruined. I think specialised armies (only goblins/night goblins/orcs/savage orcs) should be rewarded in some sense, or at least be made more appealing. The rag-tag mix already has the advantage of variety.

Yes it does. 6th ed pre-revision Dark Elves marks the 'screwed' point on the power scale, and we're barely halfway there. You need to get there to be in sufficient need of help for a revision. It wasn't just points, it was plain f*ckups like Hydras with M6 having handlers with M5, and elites getting spanked by Clanrats. The army simply did not work as intended. That's why they got a revision, and we won't.

If this were ever the case all we'd see are savage orcs and I doubt any of the other tattoos would be taken (depends on points cost of course but still, its fairly extreme - look at the DoC army and they still have instability).
Perhaps something like this for heroes might be more reasonable.

I don't think the book needs drastic changes, we do badly against some armies (specifically army set-ups) now but as Reik already pointed out its not nearly as bad as DE were.

Am also fairly pessimistic, but the 7th book is a little worse then the 6th and more streamlined, and 6th was considerably better then anything before. 6th edition and Brian Nelson were the best thing that ever happened to O&G, before that they were fairly bland* and comical more then anything else.

*The favorite cliche bad-guy, mean and slightly dangerous but not much else.

GET EM' BOYZ!

:o

Oh, I forgot that they should let orc shaman ride boar chariots. Why didn't they? Was it too unbalancing? <_<

Yeah that one is indeed rather stupid, I really would like to have the options to ride orc shamans in chariots. I don't know if it would be popular but savages with bows also rarely see the field but we still have the option for them.

Greetz
G

oh, i almost forgot, orcs should get crossbows back (they had them in the 5th ed)
and also i think heroes should get an option of taking missile weapons (again like in the 5th ed) so when u add them to an archer unit they dont just waste space :D

I think crossbows are unfluffy. The 5th edition orcs were more technologically advanced back then.

It doesn't fit the low-tech route anymore.

Actually there was a RoR unit of Orcs with Crossbows. I rather liked it :)

With regards to the army list... I'm honestly out of ideas. I'm one of those unfortunates who only seems to come up with balanced ideas, and that's gone out the window with New GW. So yeah. Some of the things on here do sound the business though :) things like Expendable, some sort of Psych boost to BlOrcs (I'm thinking Stubborn, maybe ItP on the charge), going back to the old Animosity, Nomadic Leader etc just gel well with both the theme of the army and the new "anything goes" rules.

Keep it up guys :D

Cheers!

Borzag (would prefer to NOT see Light Gobbo Chariots.... Think of them as test drive BoarKartz)

if they can construct a bolt thrower i dont see why they wouldnt be able to make crossbows. In fact a bow demands more skill to shoot with than a crossbow so crosbows are actually more orcy in my opinion.

But a crossbow has to be pretty solid to hit something with it and not need fiddly-fixing after, where as the worst thing that can happen to a bow is that it becomes a flexible stick if the rope breaks :)

The excuse with bolt throwers is that they're the stuff gobbos look after, often under the stern eye of a Bully which to me is a sort of 40k equivalent of a Mek and Runtherder together... common gobbos with crossbows that would be a sweet deal!

Orcs in lord of the rings had cross bows.

*eagerly awaits the this ain't lord of the rings comments*