I wanted to sit down and make an army this evening but I can't. I want to build an offensive army, but there are no real hard hitters in the army book! This is why I think it sucks. The book works fine if you want a defensive army, but I find it hard to imagine a defensive O&G army. Also, it should be possible to choose an offensive army if you want to.
The closest thing to hard hitters are the black orcs. The black orcs are too expensive for what they do. To fill the role of hard hitters they should be more powerful. Compare them with swordmasters - they're no match! Trolls could be hard hitters too, but their WS 3 makes them mediocre. Giants get shot down right away, and if they do get to the enemy line it's still pretty uncertain if they perform well. The doom diver isn't that good because it isn't a secure card. If you do hit the enemy you could still roll a low number of hits. If you have an offensive army, the doom diver will only see units on hills and large targets.
Goblin chariots have to be close to the general or they can't charge any elves or other fear-causers. The goblin chariot is good for some things, but before it gets to do those things it will probably be dead with its T 4.
The orc chariot is good, especially when coupled with a unit of boyz. But when the boyz get overrun by a unit like wild riders the chariot isn't of much use anyway. Spear chukkas are ace, but only when shooting at large targets or targets on hills, if you have an offensive army. Snotlings are good because you can contest table quarters with them and they are unnecessary deployments. I never used pump wagons, but they seem to stink because they are slow. Against wood elves I figure they are good.
When faced with a hard unit I have nothing to put up against it. I could stall it with trolls but I have to babysit the trolls. I could throw a unit of night goblins in front of it but even they won't perform well against a monster. The hard enemy unit will just cut through my line and then roll it up.

I'd say O&G are a good choice if you want a real mental challenge, but that's a bit out of character with the army. I originally bought the army because orcs like to do stuff rather than to think. I thought this would be reflected in the way they are played, that is I don't have to think very much - there are obvious roles for each unit in the army. As I said there is no unit that is obviously hard, which annoys me. When competing with armies like wood elves and high elves orcs are in a bad place!
What are your thoughts?

I hope you feel better now.

Or to rape animal farm's phrase:

All army books are balanced, some are just more balanced than others.

Since we're ranting on the army book...

<rant>

If you haven't read it, check out the interview Warvault did with Matt Ward after the army book was released to understand why our army is in the state it is: http://www.warvault.net/interviews/mat_ward.php

Some quotes are

"Mat Ward: Yup - I'm not a big fan of two pages of rules for one 25mm, 30 point model!" - Yeah, right. Leave the rules explaining to the forums...

"Mat Ward: I don't have a Greenskin army" Ohh that explains a lot of things

"That's not to say I think we overcharged Big 'Uns, quite the opposite." Right, at 4 points a model, it's a bargain ...

"General Helstrom: .... How is playtesting done these days? In house or external, or both?
Mat Ward: it's a mix of both - many eyes find more errors, and so on..." and during the playtesting it seems no-one had a unit of squig hoppers which lost a combat or the rally & move issue would have been noticed

The frakking cherry on the cake:

"Goofycabal: The Great Cave Squig .... But why can't it join regular Squig Hopper units?
Mat Ward: ... Can you imagine trying to write the rules for moving two seperate but interconnected random move units, and where the model gets placed? I chose cowardice, and I have no regrets!" - WTF? When it joins a unit, it moves with the unit. At the beginning of the compulsary movement, you can choose a separate direction & it leaves the unit.

</rant>

@KramDratta: Thanks for posting that link! I will have to check it out when my work firewall doesn't block it.

@Uruthi: It is absolutely true that we don't have a simple army. Chaos is more the "march across the field and just bash things" kind of army. Chaos Knights are just sick. We don't have anything that is just mean in combat.

I will say that with each army book, ranked units of infantry has just become more and more diminished in power. We used to have it a lot easier before the power creep came about. A big unit of orcs used to be pretty tough.

I will say that my All Mounted list is quite aggressive, though. I use two big units of boar boyz. They can hit pretty hard. Sure, they aren't Chaos Knights or even regular knights, but they can hit pretty hard. They can't take down a T6 treeman, but they can kill T5 stuff.

I also say that Squig Hoppers can be tough, but their movement is random and they can whiff their attacks, just like anyone. ItP is nice, too.

Trolls can be pretty tough. Against lightly armored troops, they can get their 3 attacks in. WS is one of the most overrated skills in the game. You still hit on a 4+ unless you are fighting something WS 7. They are S5 when they hit. If you are fighting against a highly armored opponent, you just vomit. Auto hit and no armor save. Sure, you only get one attack, but auto hit is good. If you aren't rolling so hot, you can always do that to avoid the WS 3. I've been using big units of trolls. When they win combat, they cause fear and can auto break things. I ran down a unit of IronBreakers with dwarf hero in it once. That made them completely worth it. Sure, they need a hero in them to "babysit", but that's OK, too, though. A unit of 10 trolls is going to be the center of your line and will see some action. Putting a combat hero isn't that bad an idea, anyways. I've given that hero Shagga's Screaming Sword before and he's done well. My problems with that weapon is that I don't always get around enough heroes. Your trolls are usually going to be in the thick of it, so it's not really an issue.

I agree. In fact, I think Trolls are our (very) heavy cavalry. I tried using 1-2 trolls for over a year and never got much use out of them. Lately, I have been running a unit of 4-9 (!) with a GBSB on a spider with WOHW and the no ward save item.

I've gotten nothing but good out of this unit.

Just for example, they've smashed up a steam tank. They've demolished ranked units of knights on several cases, even when they get charged - go regen saves!. They devour ranked "weenie" infantry - they just cause too many casualties. Also, they're almost immune to shooting, even with gunpowder, unlike almost anything else we have.

Also, if they wander too far from the general, they have the gobbo's 7 leadership to test stupidity against. Not great, but you'll make enough rolls to keep them from wandering for the rest of the game. Get them "stuck in", and you don't have to worry about it.

Orc boar boys are our medium cav!

I've always heard that mounted with a 2+ (or better) armor save is heavy cavalry. Anything with a 5+ or fast cav is considered light cavalry. So, our Boar Boyz with the 3+ armor save is really medium cavalry. Hard to call them heavy cavalry, even with big 'un upgrades.

Maybe if there is that summer campaign with new rules, it will give an update to boar boyz....

But yes, the trolls are really good. I will say that if you fail all your regen rolls, though, you will be hurting. It's happened once or twice.

Back on topic, though, I think OnG are definitely screwed when it comes to the power scale of the other armies. We can still win, but we have to be really good and think about it to win. We aren't a point and click kind of army. I've been told that armies go through a cycle. They are OK. Next book they suck. The next book they are overpowered. Look at DE. I disagree though. OnG will always be one of the first army books to come out with a new edition. Every time they get a new edition, they want to tone everything down and re-tool the army lists. So, Empire, Dwarfs, and Greenskins always come out just OK. Then, the power creep starts again....

Pig'uns with Floppas ?? (Flails / Choppa)

Seriously, I think a unit of Black Orcs on boars would be great...

If you're still having trouble getting hold of it, there's a copy of the interview in Da Warpath Quarterly Issue 7.

They're all listed here if you need to find the link :)

Anyways, from what I understand, a number of 'trials' were done with the army when 7th Edition came out. For example, I think Cavalry were meant to go UP in price across the board (ie in ALL armybooks), but that only ended up happening to our Boarboyz. Which wasn't so great, since they were rarely used in mass numbers beforehand anyway...

Still, there are some great new rules in the book too. I've been loving calling a Waaagh! with the army. Not really a game winner all the time, but it still *feels* like the right thing for a Greenskin army to do ^_^

Well, orcs & gobbos have always been a kind whacky, fun army that is not always easy to win with. Which, it should be. After all it should be difficult to control a bunch of bickering, undiscipled monsters!

While I believe the 6th edition army book was the most potent o&g book, the 7th edition book is the most balanced and true to the background. Orcs and gobbos are the best armies because they are fun, diverse and challenging to play! I seriously get bored playing with my daemon army because nothing tests for psych, nothing flees and many units are so hard that you can simply point and click to win! Not to mention there is nothing more rewarding than winning a game of warhammer with an army of cowardly gobbos!

As far as hard units, an overlooked unit is night goblin squig herds. A big unit of these guys is cheap, immune to psych, and dish out 2 s5, ws4 attacks each! Not to mention, if they break in combat they explode causing more damage. If you want a winning army take 2 big squig herds of 25 models. If you use them correctly you'll be winning more games.

I like that quaintrealist said that trolls are like heavy cav, interesting corralation. Throughout several editions of the game, trolls have always played a key role in my gobbo armies and lately I've been playing with entire armies of them using thw warriors of chaos book. Any gobliN trolls are better then ever because their rules have stayed the same, but they are cheaper then ever before! Huge units of them (10+) are next to unstoppable and, I have found, to be the bane of undead! While heavily armoured troops like chaos knights drop like flies to their vomit attacks.

Lastly, Orc warlords are really hard characters espcially with the screamin sword. And for 5 points orcs boyz are a great deal.

Goblin warmachines are awesome! Doom divers are difficult to miss with and I don't need to get into how effective bolt throwers are!

Anyway, don't give up on the greenies, they are great fun and extremly rewarding when you make them work!

Cheers,

Kevin out

Wow, thanks for the answers, you have some good points! I agree trolls are a good unit. I have used a unit of six, but the enemy tends to avoid the unit. Regeneration rolls are ace :wub: Squig herds seem like a good unit too, I belong to the sinners that never tried it. Mainly due to their low movement. I did get tempted and sat down and tried to make a hard, in-character orc army and made a 25-strong unit of black orcs my main unit, flanked by two units of 29-strong orcs with shields. Those two units contained the warboss and a BSB with the totem. I threw in a giant to smack up big stuff, although I am doubtful about this choice, after reading this especially. I also included two pump wagons. Ah, I'm getting off topic now.