Okay, I'm driving along this weekend on the way to the coffee shop and a line that Foreman said finally sunk in.

When he and Chase get out of the elevator after House tells them Cameron quit Foreman says something along the lines of
'If your dog craps on the carpet what do you do. You don't pat it on the head and call it a good boy you smack it on the nose with a rolled up paper.'

Foreman is comparing House to a dog that needs to be trained. Gives us a bit of insight into Foreman's attitude eh?

Seems he thinks the old dog needs training and he's the just the guy to do it instead of the other way around.

I know Foreman is arrogant but to think he can train House?! Oww, that awakening is gonna hurt! :lol:

I think if he tries, he'll find himself being trained a bit as well, and I don't think he'll like the old dog's methods.

*chomp!*

Yeah, it'd be like an upstart puppy pulling on the tail of a junkyard dog... LOL :lol: ;)

Hugs,
Sanlin

I guess Foreman has never heard of the old saying...you can't teach an old dog new tricks. It's a lesson he will learn quickly if he thinks he can though! :lol:

I don't have a really good fix on the motivation behind Foreman's line, though....

Is he upset because he thinks House abandoned his own principles (never lie, never back down) in the face of Vogler's terrorizing, or is Foreman *really* going to miss Cameron?

(I'm pretty sure it's the first one, but he seemed so betrayed...it definitely gave me pause.)

Any thoughts?

I think Foreman will take any excuse he can get to dislike House, and refusing to believe Cameron quit is just another excuse. In his mind he fired Cameron. Well, it would have been Cameron or him, either cases he would have been pissed, or the entire department, which he'd probably be ticked at too. I also don't believe he thinks House has principles, which goes to show you how utterly blind he is. If you can't already tell, Foreman is not my favorite duckling, although in light of recent events, he has been bumped higher than Chase. :D

LOL, throughout that scence i was sitting there saying, not the old dog nee tricks thing, but now its good, since cliches are fine on the message board just not with the characters :D

I agree with Cait DC, If Foreman can hate House he will. He was completly conviced that House was lying, and in fact, Camereon was fired because of House, he didn't even consiter if what House was saying about her quiting was true.

I don't think Foreman "looks" for reason's to hate House. In fact I don't think Foreman 'hates' House. I think they are alot alike in that they're both used to being the Alpha dog in the pack. Foreman's the new strong young stud and House is the wise leader. (Can you tell I watch way to many nature show?! :lol: )

The current Alpha male has been wounded (Infarction, Stacy, Detox, Vogler, etc.) so the young upstart is going to start challenging him at every opportunity. Looking to overthrow him and become the Alpha male of the pack (Do ducks have Alpha males? :huh: )

I don't think this is a consious effort on Foreman's part. I don't think he does it because he want's House's job, I think it's just instinct and ego. Unfortunately for Foreman and fortunately for us, House is still got enough Alpha male in him to keep the young one in his place.

As far as Foreman and Cameron I think it's a combination. I think he was hurt that she quit. I think he was angry with her for letting House off the hook. I also think maybe he has some feelings for her. Which could also explain his hostility towards House. (Alpha male gets the girl! ;) :lol: )

I don't think that he thought House fired her, I think he was angry that, in his mind, House didn't do anything to save her. Remember, Foreman was not privy to the lab conversation or the office conversation between House and Cameron and he sure as heck didn't know that House went to Vogler with Cameron's idea of cutting everyone's pay so they can keep the entire department. All Foreman saw was House butting heads continually with Volger with no apparent consideration of the consequences then hiding from Vogler once he really screwed it up. I think I'd be a little anger with my boss too if he did that and I were in Foreman's shoes.

Remember too that Foreman is the new guy on the block. He has the least exposure so far to House and becasue of his own ego maybe hasn't got to know House as well as he could have, should have, in that period of time. He got a hint of who House is in 'DNR'. Even in 'Poison' he gained understanding but I don't think he's there yet. Not that any of the duckling are. I don't even think Wilson or Cuddy have a full understanding of him. Maybe more insight and a keener sense of when to expect him to do things but I don't think any of them fully understand the mystery man.

I don't think any of us fully understand him yet, and I kinda hope it will stay that way, at least for a while. Mystery is part of his appeal.

These have been really interesting thoughts, and rtlemurs, I think that particular one makes a lot if sense. And you're right to point out that Foreman is only getting a partial view of the situation, and can only see the headbutting and not the attempts that House has made to keep his team together.

I also agree that he is a wonderfully mysterious character, and that he should stay a mystery so that more can be revealed about House. Keeps the character development in balance.

My new thought, thought, about Foreman, is that he's jealous of House, and his anger at House is a projection of the shame he himself feels about being jealous, because I bet Foreman considers jealousy to be a weak emotion. Most tough, alpha-male types don't have a lot of experience with jealousy, and are more used to the position of *being* envied rather than experiencing the emotion themselves.

As far as *why* Foreman is jealous of House, it may be partially because of Cameron (not that Foreman particulary wants her, but that Cameron is clearly more interested in House than she is in Foreman), but I think the real reason Foreman is jealous is because House has the ability to be brash and utterly tactless and still gets respect. House is not political and not diplomatic, and thus can work freely and with a minimal amount of bullshit. House exists outside of the world of hospital politics (pre-Vogler, anyway) and that sort of untouchable position indicates that House has a lot of power. Foreman, as a man with a past and a black man in a field that is mostly white, does not and probably *could not* ever conduct himself the way House does and still get respect. Foreman's career is always going to be embroiled in politics because he will be held to a higher standard of conduct than some of the other doctors. (Which is sadly racist, but also probably true.)

Sorry to go on and on, but I find this topic incredibly interesting. More thoughts, please!

(And it would probably help if I'd seen more episodes. I hope they re-run them like crazy over the summer!)

Wow, I'd have to say I never thought of the shame angle. It fits very well.

I would still argue that he has feelings for Cameron. Still not clear on whether it's romantic or big brother but he definitely is protective of her. I think if you watched Maternity you can see that in action. Several other instances too but off the top of my head I can't think which episodes are involved.

I don't know about the being jealous because House is brash and tactless. I think that's what angers him. and why he is so at odds with House most of the time. I'd have to watch Poison again to see if House is a little less abrasive in that episode because they seem to get along much better in that one.

Not a problem, talk all you want, I'm enjoying it! So what episodes have you seen?

Okay, this is where it gets embarrassing. I've only seen a few episodes, namely The Pilot, The Socratic Method, Fidelity, Control, Role Model, and Babies and Bathwater, and yet...I'm utterly and completely obsessed. I'm a college student and stuff gets in my way, (damned edumacation)and I saw the pilot as a re-run, so I've only experienced the goodness that is House MD since February/Marchish.

To clarify, it's not the actual brashness and tactlessness that Foreman is jealous of (I agree that they rub him the wrong way) but what they symbolize. The fact that House can behave that way and still earn respect is the true nature of the jealousy. It would be the same if House were doing anything weird, because Foreman is going to have to earn the respect he gets twice over, just because of the nature of his position in the medical world.


(I am deeply addicted to this message board. I hope I pass my finals. :P )

No embarassment necessary, you now have the advantage... You get to really enjoy the summer. Where as most of us will be watching and going 'Yeah that's nice but I've seen it already <sigh> How long until August?<checking watch>' you will be going 'Wow, that was sooooo good!'

It'll be neat to get a fresh perspective from you on the repeats so be sure to come here and post your thoughts.

As for Foreman I see what you're saying. And I agree that he will have to work twice as hard, twice as long to earn the same level of respect. But that leads me to think that Foreman doesn't think House has 'earned' his respect?!

House has been a doctor for around twenty years. I'm sure he had a period of 'earning respect' it didn't just get showered on him immediately and undeservingly.

Do you think Foreman is just overlooking that? I think at some point and at some level if Foreman becomes the same caliber doctor that House is he could do the same things if he so chooses. Not to dismiss his extra hard work but again when you are the top in the field you can get away with alot. The biggest difference is that there will be people watching Foreman closer and looking to knock him down because of his skin color which is something House doesn't have against him. House creates his own obsticles(that's not spelled right is it? :blink: Ah well, too lazy to check right now.) where as Foreman has no control over his obsticle.

In my mind this all brings to light the fact the Foreman doesn't make an effort to look past the surface. He doesn't think on the how and why of things he just looks at the here and now. He assumes too much. He assumes House screwed up the speech just to mess with Vogler. He assumes House never gave a thought to the consequences of that. He assumes House didn't earn his respect. He assumes House gives him a hard time because he can. He assumes House just does what he wants because he can. He assumes Cameron left to protect House. He assumes Chase is just coward.

He doesn't look at these things at a different angle or look at them a little harder in a little different light.

Long story short... as long as he thinks like that he'll never make a good doctor and that's why House rides him. Because House rides him he puts up his defenses and ego and attitude against that and therefore isn't receptive to what House is trying to do. Like I said he got a glimpse of it in DNR.

Just my babbling speculation here but that's what I see.

I hope it takes us fifty seasons to figure him out! :lol: I do believe the writers of the show will continue to be stingy with unveiling the mysteries of House, the problem is when network suits get involved and want things differently. Hopefully this won't happen at all or at least not for another several seasons and by then maybe they'll realize they don't need to mess with it!

It's FOX but we can always dream!

Totally off topic, but I thought I'd now share that the banner ads are all "train your dog in one week!" and "he'll obey you -- or your money back!"

My two cents... and I've skimmed through this post so stop me if you've heard this one. Foreman is the new kid on the block -- when it was the pilot, he had been there three days. He's grown into his position, and I believe that he has come to respect House for what he can teach him. And I think that's why he's at this position: to learn and grow as a doctor. It's a good fellowship. Then he can go on to a position at a big hospital with the big bucks.

Foreman is still learning, but he's pretty sure that House is stuck in his ways. House doesn't change his behaviors much, and there's no reason for him to. But Foreman doesn't change much, either...

During the whole Vogler situation, we had Chase sucking up to House and Vogler, and Cameron trying to be all powerful/manipulative. And Foreman just sat back and was his old self. He didn't try to change. There was no point. And House would have done the same thing, if he didn't have Cuddy and Vogler and Wilson riding on him. The two really are amazingly similar.

I would type more, but I have to run to a final. There's a couple cents, though.

Ah yes Mari, I agree that Foreman and House are very similar and both are set in their ways. This is exactly what is holding Foreman back. He doesn't see that he needs to change his way of thinking. Not that he needs to do a complete 360 but he needs to understand that he can't be the best if he doesn't shift positions.

Not the best selection of words but I've got Algebra on the brain right now.

Good Luck on your finals!

This is my favorite thread thus far. :)

*Exactly.* Foreman doesn't make an effort to look past the surface because others haven't bothered for most of his life. (Yes, this is a huge assumption, but I think it would be naieve of me to think that he somehow didn't have that obstacle when pretty much every member of a minority group does. In this country, anyway.) He's had a lifetime of people considering his opinions in a certain context, and now he has to try to put that behind him. Foreman's whole life was about who is judging him, and who he appears to be. He has to get past stereotypes. He's a doctor now, and though the problems present themselves in the form of people, he has to abandon the 'who' question, and take up House's favorite question: 'why'. (I hope that made sense.)

Very interesting idea about House riding Foreman to bring out certain things in Foreman's personality. And yes, Marisol, they are spookily similar.

Yeah, I've been laughing about the banner ads that offer to "House train" your "puppy" in "just seven days." LOL Change "puppy" to Duckling and that's something I'd like to see. LOL :lol: ;)

Yes, as long as the execs don't suddenly turn House into a baker from Nebraska with three precocious children and a singing dog LOL, I expect a slooooow peel when it comes to revealing his layers.

I don't know if Foreman could ever rival House for sheer deductive brilliance. He could certainly become a very fine doctor. He's probably the brightest of the Ducklings and, definitely, the one most like House (though he'd hate the comparison). Foreman is damaged when it comes to his 'people radar.' He's shark bait, in the world of human interrelations. If he can overcome that, he'd be in much better shape. Right now, he fails to see the good in someone like House and ascribes good to people that could do him potential harm such as Smarmy Marty and the drug rep. I do like the way his character has been developing. At first, I didn't care much for Foreman. He's grown on me a *lot* over the past several episodes. Even though his hatred of homeless people hasn't been explained, yet, and he did show signs of weakening during the Vogler arc when pressured by Mr. Evil (but didn't collapse, completely, the way Chase did.)

House, for his part, we've seen isn't good at swimming in the deep waters of hospital politics and power struggles. Once House gets outside of his personal comfort zone of diagnosing cases, he's in serious trouble. He's godlike in his limited sphere. But throw in politics, emotions or human relationships and he begins to founder. He needs his buffer zones and supporters--Cuddy and Wilson. Take them away, and he's extremely vulnerable and exposed.

Hugs,
Sanlin

I'm feeling like I'm getting out of my element at this point, since I've seen only six episodes. (Damn I'm so deprived.)

Anyway, I think I'm going to retire from the Foreman thread for the moment, but before I go back into tacit observation mode I'd like to mention that Sanlin is sharp as a tack. You're so on it, House would totally be in trouble without his 'buffers' Cuddy and Wilson. He does have god-like genius only in the specific realm of diagnostics.

Do you hear that, Fox? Slow peel!