Hm, so Chase WAS the aussi rat after all! And all his harping about fat people being worthless made me want to slap the everlasting piss out of him.

I was a bit surprised about Chase and Cameron being at each other's throats so vehemently tonight, worried about job or not. It seemed a bit out of character on Chase's part. He was very very nasty tonight in so many ways and it makes me sad. He's acting like a spoiled little brat. Surprisingly, however, Foreman was the most mature out of all the ducklings. I officially like him now, by the way.

Cameron re-grew her backbone, mercifully. I was afraid I was going to have to hate her for being such a wuss after that "do you like me" thing.

Also, why the hell is Cuddy not standing up to Darth Vogler at all? She's just following him around like a whipped pup. It's even more infuriating than Cameron turning to mush, because I always took Cuddy to be a stalwart sort of gal who would stand up for what's right.


And I want to turn Darth Vogler into a newt and bounce his slimey ass off the walls while taunting him.

Yeah, Chase's attiude on obesity was making me annoyed as well.

I'm just happy I have somewhere to go to discuss this topic. Can you imagine the rants and raves that are occuring at this very moment over at the fox message boards??? I can see them now...
:: shudders ::

Volger is getting on my last nerve, making House fire a duckling just because he wants to feel completely in control grrr

Too bad Chase didn't say all his fat comments around him.

When Cameron and House were talking in his office, after the lab "chat", his reaction was very interesting...

Okay...I need to go calm down from my House high.

I felt literally as though I had been punched in the gut when Cameron accused House of having feelings for her that were imparing his judgement or whatever tonight. Serious physical pain there, oddly.

And Chase. I think-hope-he was a plant, by House, to make Darth think...something. But...so out of character tonight. Makes me sad, and now I do want him fired. Until this episode, I was all for Cameron because of the crush on House thing, but now...I just don't know. The only thing that seems constant in the world, with Cameron liking House, Chase being a jerk, and Foreman being the most mature of the ducklings, is that I like House and hate Vogler. :(

I did like Cameron getting a spine, though. She's good as a thoughy.

Still. Confused. Very. Very. Confused. :blink:

If looks could kill! Did you all see the way House looked at Vogler when he threatened to fire the whole department if he didn't 'pick another'?

So what now? Is Vogler trying to get nto Cameron's pants? All that 'if there's anything I can do for you my door is always open' crap. She was also giving him an uncomfortable look as she turened away.

I thought Cam and Chase were going to slug it out right there outside House's office! He is such as ass! Vogler's little snitch! I have lost all respect for him! That's the reason Vogler wants him to stay; so he can keep ratting out House and everyone else.

Cuddy needs to grow a spine! I agree with Sam! Shw was a lot tougher before. Now she's been reduced to Voglers little puppet. He needs to go down! Like a rabbid dog! Heck, there are all kinds of nasty drugs in a Hospital. Someone needs to sneak up behind him when he's alone and stick him! Kind like a "Who shot JR" thing, but no one really cares!

Death to Vogler! I hate his guts!

If I could have reached through the screen tonight, I would've throttled both Chase and Vogler! Chase's insensitivity to the patient because of her weight was inexcusable. The kid teasing the girl in the opening scene actually looks a little like Chase and Chase probably tormented the fat kids just like that kid was doing.

This was an emotional episode for me because I was the "fat kid" at that age too. I wasn't as heavy and thankfully I did have friends, but I remember all too well the bullying, teasing, and the low self-esteem. I thought they treated the issue with alot of sensitivity, although I'm sure there are people on the "angry site" who are only going to focus on Chase's attitude.

At least now House is sure who the leak is. Can't wait until Vogler's gone and Chase has to face the music for his betrayal. I thought what Foreman said about Chase not appreciating the job hit the nail on the head--if he appreciated it, he wouldn't do anything to jeopordize those who work with him.

And cheers to Cameron! I'm so glad she got over the whole "like me" thing and stood up to House and Vogler! Cuddy needs to take some lessons from her!

Hey! I have a solution for the Vogler/Chase problem--House should call the mobsters from last weeks episode and ask for a "favor!" Have them put a good "Godfather" scare into Chase by putting Vogler's head in his bed! Scare the little creep &%#*less and show him who's boss!

Yeah, I'm also not the skinniest person on the planet, but it has actually kind of paid off for me. You can't be a tiny little person and throw far, so heh! Blah to all you twig people (not that there's anything wrong with being skinny, it's just that being bigger doesn't make you fat, or ugly)

I was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mad at Chase. I wanted to just slap him like the mobster in the last ep. Grrrrrrr. Vogler needs to die. I'm convinced. Let the fat bastard die of a heart attack, or some other nasty disease, and House is the only one who can figure out what it is to save him, and he laughs! Yes! That is the way that it needs to go down! Gah! And CHASE! HOW COULD YOU?! *dies*

However this ep had sooo many slashy parts...my inner fangirl was squeeing to death.

"I'll grab Chase's ass too."

"Seperate or together" re: lunch
"Together"

Let me just say squee. I'm sorry all you House/Cameron shippers, I just can't see that ending well. I know that's the way that the show is playing, and I have nothing against it, but I know what happens when two people with baggage get together and it's not pretty.

Ok well that's all I have to say, I'm going to probably move this to the episode thread for Heavy, so look for it there.

Taru

The good:

-- A "patient of the week" who we can really care about.
-- A sympathetic mother.
-- House's snark re: the clinic patient.
-- Cameron showing some spine.
-- House actually following Cameron's suggestion and proposing pay cuts (shows he really does care about his brood).
-- The first Cuddy scene and all the Wilson scenes.

The bad:

-- Darth Vogler. In the first episode he hinted at moral complexity. Now they're just making him slimy and evil. Boring.
-- Chase. What happened to the nice guy we knew in "Detox"? They'd better have a very good reason for his abrupt personality change, because right now I'm not buying it.
-- The "pecking party" amongst the Ducklings. Foreman was right: sniping is not the way to go. I think even House, who enjoys a good conflict, was sick of it.
-- Not enough Wilson.

I just posted a hugeass thread about this in the duckling discussion forum if you're interested. :P

Duckling opinions (at the moment):
1. Foreman-I'm so feeling the love for him right now. He wants his job, but won't stoop to any evil levels. The sympathy he had for the girl was truly sweet. My number one duckling at the moment.

2. Cameron-Okay, in my opinion, she's become rather annoying. Is it me or is she reading more into House's feelings for her than what's actually there? I was liking the whole, "Cameron grew a backbone" part, but all but that's about it.

3. Chase-Grrrr...did he hit his head or something? There has to be a reason behind him for losing his mind. Snitch, insults, and brown nosing, not the same Chase from the beginning of the season.

Well this episode was...interesting. I liked it. Of course I agree with the other posters here about the duckling fight. Cameron and Chase down and dirty. I was just waiting for House to bring in a kiddie pool full of jello and a lawn chair and let them duke it out under his watchful gaze.

I was impressed with the Cameron scenes overall. I enjoyed her locating her backbone. Of course when she found it, I think she stole Cuddy's as well. Vogler is definitely jerking her strings right now. However, when Cuddy decides to cut those ties, I wouldn't want to be Vogler.

I am looking forward to finding some transcripts of the Cameron/House conversations. Not for the possible shippy spins (because "separate or together" definitely steals the show for shippy context) but because it seemed like a lot more than surface stuff was going on there, and I don't think I picked up on all of it, darn telephone. I got the impression during the convo in his office, they were calling each other on atypical behavior, or something to that effect? Will have to toodle through the web and see what I can find.

Darth Vogler was infuriatingly wonderful. I love to hate him so very, very much. And Foreman in this episode? I just don't know. Honestly, he kind of left me with a "meh" feeling. Other than some minor taunting at the beginning, he largely stayed out of the duckling brawl and refused to play Vogler's "duck, duck, goose" game. While good on him, and his care for the little girl was great, it still didn't touch me as much as it probably should have. Maybe upon reflection, that feeling will change.

And I love Wilson, I would love more Wilson. There just wasn't enough Wilson for me in this episode.

Also have come to conclusion that I would spend an hour every week listening to Hugh Laurie recite a phone book and be completely happy.

UGH!!! I so hope that's the case because he's really standing on my last nerve right now. That would be the only thing that could redeem him right now.

I was impressed with Cameron's brass balls in calling House on the feelings thing. With him never admitting it, that took guts for her to say something to his face. I mean, she can know it in her heart but to say it is something else altogether. Good for her. I think it threw him off a bit.

As much as I want to think that Chase's actions -- in regards to the patient -- were out of context for him, it seems to me that he's actually been consistently unsympathetic to people he believes are responsible for their own problems. Alcohol? Drugs? Steroids? Now diet and exercise? Seems he's very willing to put the blame on the patient in these cases -- and jump to the conclusion whenever in doubt that they've done it to themselves.

Another thing:
While I agree with the people who said stuff about the patient being one we could care about & the show treating the topic with sensitivity, I was, however, disappointed with the ending. I couldn't figure out while the episode was in full swing why they had some not-fat girl playing the role in not-so-convincing fat make-up. It just seemed unnecessary. That is, until the end. The mother said all along that she was wonderful girl & pretty & even at the end she said she always looked great. The sad thing was the girl never believed it until she wasn't fat anymore. It just reinforced that idea that you can't be happy until you're skinny.

The woman in the clinic who was so proud of her corpulence turned out to be some whore with no morals or respect for her marriage vows so that pretty much negates showing a well adjusted character who's happy with her size. The mother is a larger, happy (I suppose) woman but not necessarily "fat." Obviously, at the age of 10, it would take an exceptionally strong person to overcome the ridicule of her peers and find happiness in who she is, no matter what size she may be. I just think it would have been nice to have her not need to be skinny to be accepted.

Oh, and one more thing:
What was up with House assuming the woman with the tumour was sleeping around just because her children had different coloured eyes? Has he never heard of recessive genes???

I thought that regressive genes meant brown eye genes dominate green/blue only with two brown eyed parents in that hte gene comes from another part of the line, g/parents etc? But I did not love biology too much at school. Did likes this though for the "oh my god he's gone warm/ fuzzy" over the kid photos to "sticking the Mum for messing around".

That dirty rotten two-timing pathetic spineless... CREEP!

I've quietly been on Chase's side up until the Vogler arc... he's good at his job, and he's generally on House's side (remember him standing up in "Detox" when Cameron was trying to decide whether to lie to the father). And now he goes and pulls this crap!

I think Sam's got a very good analysis of him in the duckling thread, but if that's how it's working out, I'm not sure they wrote enough foreshadowing into the older episodes to back it up...

And his whole attitude toward the patient was absolutely inexcusable. Did somebody slip him steroids that are causing drastic mood swings? 'Cause this is just so... weird for him.

It's not just you. Again... slip-ups in the writing? I think it's obvious he has feelings for her, but I think that only came out on House's face when Cameron brought up the subject an episode or two back... anything before that came across to me as mentor/friend feelings....

Still puzzled about her case of the disappearing/reappearing spine....

Foreman can be a pr*ck sometimes, but he's got principles, and he's sticking with them -- way to go, man.

Interesting that Wilson proposed *House* be the one to leave -- and I'd be willing to bet that, if it didn't mean leaving his team in the clutches of Vogler, and leaving patients at risk, House would do just that, just to spite the guy.

I don't think I understand what you're asking there. Basically, if both parents have brown eyes (the dominant gene,) it's entirely possible for them to have children with eyes of a different colour like blue or green (the recessive gene) if both parents carry that gene. That said, it is actually possible (albeit rare) for blue eyed parents to have a brown eyed child so the idea of what is dominant & what is recessive isn't necessarily an absolute. The scientific community continues to come up with new ideas/discoveries on the subject so there's no absolute here regarding how eye colour is determined.

Okay I am on the other side of the fence from most of you.

First I found Cameron's spinal growth to be nothing of the sort. She is just plain annoying. It's still all about her. "Look at all I've done for you', 'All the sacrifices I've made' 'You're doing this because you like me and can't admit it.' Oh grow up! 'I can trust people' No that's not trust that's clingy dear.

And excuse me but when did House 'screw up' and she had to back him? Other than in Detox and she didn't back him, she did what he told her to do but once it was clear it was a not a good thing she jumped ship with the rest of them. I say if Cameron leaves good riddens she needs to get over herself and really grow a personality not a backbone. (Okay so I may be a wee bit jealous that she might be attracting the attentions of one fine scruffy, doctor I have my sites set on but hey... :lol: Kidding folks)

Next is the Chase issue.

Did it really suprise anyone that it was Chase? I mean I was a little suprised that they went with the obvious choice but come on... ;)

Okay it did suprise me, I thought they'd be a little more clever with that.

And after reading the thread on personality types and a psychoanalysis of Chase my question is; Don't you think House knows this?

Plus is getting rid of him or firing his ass the best thing? I think if you're ever going to break the cycle so to speak you need to show that individual that yes you can make mistakes and yes I'll be mad at you and there will be consequences but it doesn't mean I don't still care for you.

That's why I don't think House would just throw him away. I think he has a need to fix his ducklings and will fix them all eventually.

Why did he choose Chase to let go. Volger made it clear that it was a power issue so he figured that if he presented the snitch for sacrifice Vogler would either have to go with it and find another snitch, which wouldn't be easy since the remaining ducklings might not be so willing to jump ship after almost losing their job because of Vogler. Or Vogler would have to let the snitch stay, thus exposing the snitch and letting House off the hook. I think it's his way of forcing Vogler's hand. Showing Vogler that he's not going to submit to his authority.

It kind of worked. It bought him some time to figure out a way around this whole thing and exposed the snitch. I think House figures that now Vogler can no longer trust Chase so it frees that duckling from his evil clutches. :lol: He can use this as an opprtunity to show Chase that he does care about him in spite of being upset with him.

And last, what's up with Wilson? What's with the 'You should just quit' thing? Did I miss something, was he being sarcastic? It didn't seem like it. If so I totally missed that. He was kind of weird all episode if you ask me (and I know, you didn't :P )

I do agree with you about the clingy thing. That's annoying. But I still think it takes balls to say what she said about him having feelings to his face. She may have been riding the adrenaline wave or something. I certainly wouldn't have had the nerve...

I don't know if it's the adrenaline either, I think maybe anger. Either way it's always about her. Did the thought ever cross her mind that maybe he cares for all of them and that this is a very hard decision he has to make? That it's not just facing his feelings for her (whatever they are) but his feelings about each and every one of them.

I hate Cameron more and more with each episode!

Hm re. my earlier post about regressive genes, I have no idea what I meant - thanks for explaining- I just remember vaguely something about blue eyes and regression (ish)!

Cameron/House. I do think House likes Cameron but not in a sexual way.
From their talk in Fidelity he seemed to identfy her pathology as being a good person but too niave and although he appreciated her motives felt it was standing in the way of her development as a doctor. And last night when he said "figures you'ld fing a way no one gets hurt" I don't think he was being sarcastic. She took it that way, but I think that he admires her for that, but knows she'll have to become more objective.

The whole "I like you" deal has complicated things. Of course when she made it clear she was asking if he liked her in a "more than" way he was going to say no. I reckon he meant it pretty much in this sense too. But still, did she think he was going to say "yes, and by the way lets get it on in the corridor. He's her boss - and I thought the fact that he gave her some sarcasm but not much else for putting him in a pretty unprofessional sitiuation was fairly obvious without making her feel worse. He likes her goodness but needs to knock the emotional/subjective side of her into shape.

As far as Chase goes, again I think House likes him, probably even knowing he ratted him- he's not the sort to get overly moralistic, but the fact that Cameron and Foreman are cheesed with him will upset the group dynamic and they will not work well like this. His ability to do the math, two against one probably forced him, when pushed with no other option, to offer him up.

I don't think House wanted to fire Chase because he suspected he was the snitch; I think he agreed with Foreman's assessment that Chase didn't appreciate the job. House knows it wasn't Chase's idea to be a doctor, that he'd rather be doing something else. House not only wants his doctors to be passionate about what they're doing but I think he also wants Chase, considering his father is dying, to take the opportunity to do what he's passionate about.

I have to ask, was anybody else just a little creeped out when Vogler approach Cameron. It brought back to mind this discussion from "Control" :

Vogler's approach with Foreman and Chase was slimy, but didn't even register on the creep factor like it did with Cameron. I know sex had nothing to do with it, it was all just a little weird to me. Then again, I was watching the episode with a sizable headache, so my head wasn't exactly in the game like it could of been.

Oh, yeah! Gross. I totally felt it too. There was just something so wrong about it. It gave me chills.

About eye color:

In most high school biology courses, eye color is grossly oversimplified as showing brown/blue to simply be a matter of a single dominant/recessive gene.

The fact is that eye (and hair and skin) color in human beings involves more than a single gene and a bit more complicated than your 10th grade bio teacher would have you believe. I think at least three genes have been identified in controlling eye color and that's probably not all of them.

Brown eyes are more or less dominant over blue and green eyes, but two brown eyed parents can and do sometimes have blue, green and hazel-eyed children. They do have to *carry* the genetic codes for these colors to pass them to their children, however, even if they do not display the characteristics themselves.

That said, both of those parents looked to be of hispanic ancestry and the father in particular of mestizo ancestry (due to his height, or lack thereof). Blue, green and hazel eyes are, strictly speaking, a result of genetic mutation. They (along with blonde and carrot-red hair) come from Europe and the middle east (the "-stan" countries often have people greenish/hazel eyes). Hispanics, however, *generally* do not have children with these eye colors, or at least only very occasionally due to mixed ancestry. Those of pure native american (north or south) would NEVER have blue eyes, as the genes for it simply do not exist in that population.

The thing I got from the comment House made about the man being the father of "three... maybe four" of the woman's six(?) children is that at least half of them had non-brown colored eyes. The chances of them having maybe one child with blue eyes are quite low. The chances of having two or three are astronomically low. It's *possible* but I think House was making a pretty safe bet in guessing that she had been sleeping around.

Hench the following line from House in the quote above;

"Well yes Dr. Cameron, let's have lunch and discuss this on my private jet"(I know that's not the exact quote but you know what I'm talking about)

I think House is just trying to keep his ducklings out of Darth Vogler's grasp. He offered up Chase to render him useless as a snitch.

He's pissing off Cameron to get her to RUN!!! Vogler's after her pants and won't stop 'til he gets some. He can't just come right out and tell her (not his style anyway) she wouldn't believe it and might even try to get friendly just to prove him wrong because she thinks he just 'can't trust anyone'

I think he figures Foreman can handle himself or I'm just not picking up on anything there. I think if he even gets a sniff of Vogler getting to Foreman he'll find a way to slap ole Darth's hand back.

Also did anyone else notice that each time he has confronted Vogler it's been in front of Cuddy (except the early mutual dislike scene in House's office and that was by Vogler's choosing.)? I think he's trying to REALLY show Cuddy what Vogler is about. Let Vogler hang himself so to speak.

Not that Cuddy hasn't picked up on this already but House is showing her that this guy is all about power and control and money and has no compassion or concern for patients or cures. He just wants to be the guy on top giving the orders and having everyone follow him like zombies.
I think she still thinks a little ass kissing is worth all that money and House is trying to show her that this is just the tip of that massive iceberg and it'll only get worse. Titanic ring a bell with anyone? :lol:

Personally, I think the whole situation is unlikely simply because of what you just stated. Taking into consideration her probable ancestry, even if she was sleeping around, the chances of her having multiple children with blue and/or green eyes are fairly slim. I don't see how it's THAT much more likely the children have different fathers than the likelihood of the same 2 parents having those kids. (sorry, that was worded really poorly.) Know what I mean?

For example, I am 1 of 4 children. Both of my parents have brown hair & eyes. 3 of us have the same while 1 has blond hair & blue eyes. who knows how subsequent children would have turned out. If that family on the show had 2 or 3 out of six(?) with eyes different from their parents' that's high but not out of the question.

Also, about the whole sleeping around thing, House takes one piece of information and runs with it. Like Cameron being beautiful and that equating to her being damaged. House's logic may be a little flawed, but he is usually right. Ok that was totally confusing...let me try again...

House's way of thinking puts everything into absolutes. Ok the woman may not be sleeping around, but the blue/green eyes tipped him off, and then he remembered that she said that her husband had a vascetomy(sp??) and they used condoms. Like House said overkill. I think, for the most part, House's brain works a little like mine, that is it doesn't flow from one thing to the next, it jumps. He sees one thing and it triggers something else, a memory or a fact, or whatever. He then goes with whatever it is without hesitation. That is one of the things I love about him.

Ok if you got all that, you get a gold star. I'm a little drugged up on OTC cold medication...lol.

Eye for one appreciate this genetics discussion! (sorry very lame rein- car-narted, anyone.

Hmm Vogler (and the episodes he's been in) have done the job and we don't sit back and think "hey neat- how that all worked out and I really think Chase/House/Cameron is such a hero/villain/wimp". This is generalising but all the mixing up is leaving a lot of questions:

Why hasn't Wilson picked up on the whole House/Cameron thing?

Usually he and House are right in on any gossip and all three ducks know (and we know Chase is prone to the odd indiscretion).

House hasn't done his snarky best/worst on Vogler and seems to be allowing his world order to be disrupted?

All the same, I have faith that this will just lead to better and more interesting resolution and further intrigue. Hate to quote Vogler's favourite expession but "Interesting isn't it?"

That made perfect sense so either you're not too dopey on meds or I am equally looped! ;) I also think her reaction to the idea of surgery was a factor in his deduction. I do like his "logic" most of the time because I too tend to jump around like that. I would just never have the nerve to come right out and say the stuff he does. Hoofa!

<<groan>> very cute ;)

Just recently re-watched this episode and noticed something I hadn't before. (Because I'm unobservant and doing quotes at the same time.) I didn't see anyone else mention it, so...

When Chase is starting his American obesity tirade, he is getting coffee. I assumed it was for him. But he walks over and gives it to House, and I love the confused look on House's face.

I also noticed that Chase wears a pinkie ring, and in Role Model at the outdoor cafe he still is wearing it. Has he always worn it and I'm unobservant or was this a fairly new thing?

About the eye-color thing....

Yeah, as was pointed out, it would be *possible* for two brown-eyed parents to have one or more non-brown-eyed children, but it is the less likely of the two possible explanations.

House is a master of inductive reasoning, and he was putting the eye color info together with what he already knew: she was refusing surgery because she *allegedly* thought her husband would be repulsed by her scar, and that the husband would love her no matter what. House was resolving these pieces of information into the one scenario that fits all of it. Her relutance to get scarred had nothing to do with her husband's opinion.

The inductive reasoning thing pretty much clinches for me that House is really Holmes and Wilson is Watson. In spirit. :)

About Chases comment on overweight people, I think there must be an underlieing reason for his comments...like maybe he was overweight as a child and got teased for it-badly.

People don't just hate things for no particular reason, I mean Hitler didn't just wake up one morning and go-you know I hate Jew's, they should all be exterminated. His father brainwashed him as a child, it doesn't make Hitler any less of an evil scum, but it does give us an insight into his screwed up mind.

Remember Chase has so many issues it's hard to keep count- don't be so quick to judge him, but yes h does need a good slap.

Could be that Chase is just angry at the self destructive natural of overweight people.

All along Chase stated that it was the girls fault that she was overweight.

So to follow chase's reasoning...

The fact that she was overweight was what caused her problems thus she caused her health problems. Since she could have prevented herself from being fat she had the power to choose between health and unhealthy and has choen to be unhealthy.

I think he relates that to his mother choosing to drink herself to death. That's why he is angry.

Or at least that is my thoughts on the subject.

PS: It's nice to see you all rewatching the old episodes and not only picking out new things but thinking about these things in light of newer episodes.