Bwa ha ha...House playing chess. I might have a new avatar soon. :lol: I winced when he lost, but really--how often does he play? The fangirl part of me wanted to see House kick Nate's butt, but the sadistic part of me that likes to see House in pain didn't. I guess they chose for me. I would've sqeeed either way.

I do think that the writers took into account that no matter how many funny lines they gave Nate, the viewing audience is utterly, irrevocably biased in House's favor. ;)

Chase was quite interesting tonight. JS did a good job of really, truly loathing the kid, and he seemed to be oddly blank with the mother. Interesting how he adores House but seems to hate a younger version? And a compliment from House! :D And this was supposed to be a Foreman episode. Chase is Duckling of the Week.

First thoughts, completely off the top of my head. More later, maybe. Great episode, love the title.

I, too, loved Chase this week. His confrontation of House about sabotaging Foreman's interview was great. But there is one part of his reasoning that I didn't quite follow. OK, cancelling the interview has the effect of making everybody chase ghosts to figure out who did it; and yeah, that does seem like something House would do. But Chase offered the additional motivation that all the drama would make Foreman useless. Why would House want that? And what does that have to do with House wanting Foreman to stay?

Staying on the Chase love train, both Cuddy and Cameron really do underestimate him, don't they? If any duckling is ready to leave the nest (pond?) and become an independent diagnostician, it is Chase, not Foreman. And Cameron could have suspected Chase for the same reason that Cuddy suspected Wilson and Wilson suspected Cameron: because he knows House really wants Foreman to stay and he cares about House. But no, she thought he was being an ass. Nice.

Staying on the Chase love train, both Cuddy and Cameron really do underestimate him, don't they?
Chase is the duckling I find the most consistently non-annoying. And you're right, I think he's the more independent of the lot. It kind of annoys me when Foreman and Cameron lord it over him -- speak up, mate!

Nothing else to say about this ep yet!

Yes, I'm right there on the Chase love train this week, and really for almost half of this season (from the episode where he got punched on). I loved House's smile at their little exchange as he listened to Chase putting all the pieces together. A little bit of fatherly pride there I'd say! He really is the teacher underneath all of that other stuff. :D

And yes, I think Chase is the most ready to leave the pond. But, he is also a bit more like House in that he won't defend himself against the naysayers. It doesn't seem that he has gotten to the level where he lets his work doing the talking for him but I'm sure that's not far away.

Another great moment was House working out the chess problem. Tenacious is an understatement. I just love that he had to work that out. That even though, on the surface, it looked like a loss he just would not accept that. He had to keep digging until he found a way or exhausted all other possibilities. So true to his character once again.

It reminded me of his quest for answers in "All In". It shows that this is House in all aspects of his life, not just medicine and diagnostics. He needs answers to whatever questions he has and he will not give up until he gets them. That it is always pure curiousity and only later are other elements added which affect the speed and intensity of the search for answers.

His submission in the chess game seemed to be more of an admission that he was wrong with the diagnosis, not that he had lost the chess game. The fact that he rethinks the game and along with the diagnosis is again a shining example of what House is at his core. One tenaciously curious individual who is unwilling to accept anything at face value.

tpel1, to Chase, confidence and career are important things, so he would naturally assume these are important things to everyone else. So his theory would run that House was trying to affect those two things for Foreman and by affecting those he would get him to stay.

If House could get Foreman to be useless it would cause Foreman to rethink his abilities. If Foreman starts to doubt his abilities he may doubt whether he is ready to leave. If he leaves and he is not ready it could be very bad for his career. So by making him doubt he will in effect get him to stay on.

Plus, I think House puts some stock in confidence and career too so it is not too far fetched to think that Chase has picked up on that in House as well as himself. This would seem to be validated by House's comment to Foreman about not being ready. About trusting his (House's) instincts more than his own. I believe House believes what he said and was not just playing Foreman.

All of the ducklings are part of House's work. And he would not have an unfinished work out there reflecting poorly upon him. Not that he'd necessarily take the blame or the credit but in his own mind he would carry the guilt if Foreman left and did poorly. It would be one more thing to hate himself for.

And, still on Chase, I just love the "It's Tuesday" line. They did it so well. This could have become really annoying but I don't think it was. And, I think it's working. Cameron I believe is softening. I hope they carry this over into season four because I'd like to see Chase win.

As far as Nate goes, I didn't find him intensely irritating. Annoying at times but I guess House has kind of blunted that edge for me. But, I will say that the kid was definitely different than House in that department.

Both House's and Nate's snark is generated from a sense of superiority. They are both above average in the intelligence department and know it. The difference is House has a purpose to most of his. He uses it to get people to think, or to hopefully get them to think. Nate, for the most part was either just being mean or using it to gain an advantage (as in his bluffing in the chess game).

And maybe House was like that at an early age and just learned and refined his methods. I think with Nate, that may come with maturity too.

Interesting analysis, rtlemurs. It seems that Cuddy wants Foreman to stay for House's benefit, and Wilson wants Foreman to go for House's benefit. House, the supposedly evil one, may be the only one who is actually thinking of Foreman's best interest.

I think I get why House won't try to persuade Foreman to stay: (1) House has a huge ego (sorry :-) and doesn't want it to seem like he needs anyone. But, more importantly, (2) House wants Foreman to stay for Foreman's own reasons, not because of any affirmation he gets from House. The pre-yips Foreman wouldn't give a crap what House thinks of him, and that's the Foreman who House wants back.

That said, I don't know that making Foreman feel useless will succeed in achieving House's goal. Chase might be right -- Foreman might need to know that House isn't evil. But House may not be the best person to convince Foreman of this, as House sometimes seems to believe that he is evil.

I absolutely loved the shot where House is in the foreground, leaning over the chessboard, echoing Chase's "I hate this kid", while at the same time Chase is in the background kind of smirking.

Not at all to endorse House's Dad's methods, but that's another difference between House and Nate. House grew up in an overly disciplined environment, while Nate seems to be growing up in an overly permissive environment. Thus, House may have learned faster to keep some of his anti-social impulses in check. I like it that we got hints that Nate's Mom might be on the way to improving her parenting, but nothing conclusive. She confronted the fact that she sometimes hates her son, yet, when the chips are down, she loves him. She was willing to bypass his wishes and make medical decisions that she thought were in his best interests. Will this translate to saying "No" to him outside the hospital? We don't know.

I really liked this chapter, especuially the ghost hunt about who sabatogshed Foreman's interview.

I don't like that we have to wait two weeks to see the last episode! :(

That kid was a jerk! Loved the scene with House and the kid, nate playing chess. very nice.

Chase is the Duckling of the Week :)

God and peace
Vanessa :)

Good episode, Probably the only person who liked Nate. I tend to always like intelligent, jerks, over overtly nice intelligent people. With jerks like Nate and House, I feel more comfortable around because I know they'll be mean, I'm not sitting their going. I hope they don't talk about me behind my back, i hope I shouldn't shut up? am I boring? am annoying? etc... they'll let me know, point out the flaws they don't like about me. Nice people sugar coat stuff, and I usually end up confused. Of course I don't try to be a bitch, but I tend to be truthful too people. I figure they asked my opinion and I always do that whole shrug/whatever/no opinion gesture, but always that one person who won't let it go so I tell them the truth. I do the shrug no matter if the opinion is positive or negative. Yeah, so I liked Nate. Not sure what it says about me, when I prefer the cold abrasive jerk over the warm caring sensual person (is anyone else getting pictures of lube when thinking about the words caring & sensual?) Doubt I'd like him in real life, but as a TV character I like him.


I was so convinced after House confronted Cuddy about sabotaging Foreman's interview that it was Chase. I should have figured it would have been House. Tpel, I agree House does have a big ego.

Every thing else has been said so I might go rewatch the episode and I might actually talk more about the episode and not how I like nate, BTW he looked like a kid in my brother's class from highschool.

anyone know the name of the song and who its by when the little piss nate is on shrooms i know i know it i just cant think of the name or nething

Before I forget, the name of the song is "Inna Godda Da Vidda" (or something somewhat similar, but that's how it's pronounced) by Iron Butterfly. It was before my time--I'm old but not that old-- but I'm sort of a classic rock fan. Interestingly it got named that way because that's what the rest of the group thought the singer was saying, but it turned out he was saying "in the garden of Eden" but he was so wasted, and may have had an accent, that it came out sounding like inna godda da vidda.

Okay, add me to the people who didn't find Nate that bad. He was a brat, definitely, and it might do him some good to learn there are times when it's in your own best interest, as well as everone else's, to keep your mouth shut, but the outright "can't stand him" vibe that many of the characters felt about him didn't resonate with me. He'd actually be fun to spar with verbally, which always will earn you points with me. I won't say that I neccessarily like spending time with rude people, although I have more tolerance for people who are rude because the world is two or three steps behind them and they see holes in the logic rather than people who are rude due to a sense of entitlement, but I'd certainly rather spend time with someone like Nate than with a wanna-be Paris Hilton type.

I would actually say that Nate was a reasonable facsimilie of what House was like at that age, or at least what he could have been like. As Tpel said House's dad would have never actually let him get away with that kind of attitude, at least in his presence, but House was probably fundamentally the same: too smart, and too vocal about it. You can easily see why a person like House or Nate would be especially trying to someone used to rigid, military style discipline (not that I'm endorsing what House's father did, I'm not, it was wrong, but it's easy to see how a bad situation could be made worse).

Thirding, or whatevering, the approval of Chase. I couldn't help thinking that when House mentioned the third option, "ignore me and do what you think is right", to Foreman as a sign that he was ready to leave that Chase has already done that at least once and if memory serves more than once. Oh, Chase, you're so cute. You can do so much better than Cameron (which is exactly what I thought when he said "It's Tuesday").

The chess game and it's aftermath was also intriguing. It was telling that House kept worrying at the problem, both the chess problem and the diagnostic problem, even after he had supposedly "laid down his king". That Ladies and Gentleman, comprises a great deal of what does keep House awake at night--and I'm not just talking about it being applied to medical/logical problems either-- IMHO.

I was surprised that after he took the chess board away when Nate started seizing that House did lay down the king. I take House as the kind to not admit defeat even when he is clearly defeated. Of course I could certainly accept Tpel's explaination for the action too.

As for the interview sabotage, I was waiting for it to be revealed that Cameron had followed Cuddy's advice after all and she was the one who did it. Oh, no not sweet little butter-won't-even-melt-in-her-mouth Cameron. But we all know she's not as sweet, or delightful, as she likes to think she is--both in ways the producers have intended and in the unintended ways she comes accross. As I mentioned to someone last night, I'm just waiting for her to have a psychotic break, when I'm not suspecting that she's already having one of course. Still, that was what I was hoping for, especially when she asked if Foreman needed a peer reccommendation. To be honest, I wouldn't have the guts to do something like that either--the most I could manage would be a non-confrontational, I don't think that I could really give you the kind of reccommendation you want, or if I were feeling especially daring give a really lukewarm filled with veiled disapproval reccommendation-- but it's a nice fantasy anyway. And now that I've revealed my passive-aggressive tendencies, I'll leave it at that.

Ha -- I'm completely musically clueless, but when I saw the closed captioning spell out "Inna Godda Davida . . ." I thought, "That's funny, the lyrics always sounded like 'In the garden of Eden' to me." Maybe I speak "wasted" . . .

I didn't find Nate that bad either, Catlady, but I think I saw the comparison with House differently. Nate struck me as more bratty than evil, a description that fits House too, though Nate showed a viciousness toward his mother that went beyond what we usually see from House. House tends to pick on people whose self-esteem could use a little deflating; poor Enid had none to deflate. Were we supposed to think that Nate was especially smart? I mean, he's a chess prodigy, which probably means he's pretty bright, but it certainly doesn't imply that he's a genius. He was verbally quick on his feet, and his remarks were funny for their sheer inappropriateness, but I can't recall anything he said that was really clever in itself. I'm kind of with House when he observed that there's a fine line between tortured genius and creepy kid who can't get a date. If you are the latter, it helps to tell yourself that you are the former. Nate is the latter, with pretentions toward the former that may or may not be accurate. House is the former, and probably was the latter when he was young.

And that's the strongest connection I see between House and Nate: they both alienate people almost without thinking about it. They tell themselves that that's the way they like things to be, that people are boring and stupid, that connecting with people at a deeper level would be a waste of time. House is sometimes self-aware enough to acknowledge that this is bullshit. Maybe Nate will get there someday.

GAH! Why oh why do we have to work when we're at work? I will be back to comment further but right now I just wanted to say you have some very interesting points Tpel. I hope I'll be able ot make it back in a little later today and expand on this.

And I hope AE and some of the others get a chanvce to drop by and poke the thought process. I always enjoy reading what you folks have to say.

Steady, Rt! Gotta watch it first!

:D

OK, chiming in here because I miss rtlemurs. ;)

I can't imagine that House was ever like Nate (is that his name?) in his younger years, not at all. His father would have severely punished him for it, number 1, and number 2, House is nothing but polite around his parents...remember the one scene we saw in "Daddy's Boy"? No retorts to his father's put-downs.
We've seen multiple, multiple times how House reacts to being 'attacked' by one of the team or by Cuddy/Wilson...he never defends himself, He just looks at the floor sadly. You can count on one hand the number of times House has flown off the handle and spoken in anger. There have been scenes where I would have thought he really deserved to do so, such as when Wilson refused to give him an med for his nausea in MLC, but he didn't. He does have the ability to control his mouth, something Nate does not.

Another point is that Nate is being mean to others for meanness' sake, no ulterior reasons. House is usually mean for a reason, usually to make someone realize that their line of thinking is faulty, or that they need to change something about themselves.
At least, that is how I view it. :)

How very true. But, is that because he really cares or because since he (House) doesn't like himself he can support Foreman's desire not to be like him?

I think he really does care and that revealed itself in his comment about Foreman not being ready. I'd have to rewatch but I think Foreman didn't take it as the high insult he might have a few years back. I think he was still put off by the comment but he knows there is a grain of truth in it. The debate in Foreman's mind is although he thinks House is "evil" (although I can't recall if we heard those words from his mouth) I think he knows that House is never mean just to be mean, there is always a reason. That comment being no different. But, instead of Foreman taking it as House trying to help him he took it as House trying to keep him.

Yes, especially wanting the pre-yips Foreman back. If he can't do his job there is no point in him staying therefore no point in asking him to stay. But I also think there is another reason in combination with what I said above.

The scene in "Family" that predicated this whole resignation thing shows me he (Foreman) understands that aspect of House (mean for a reason) a little better now. He knows he was mean for the greater good and that this is exactly what House would have done. He just doesn't understands the price it extracts from House. House never shows it so how could he? He sees House going about business as usual after something like that and he has to assume that things like that don't bother him. That House can inflict that kind of pain without hesitation and not bat an eye. That he has no feelings or remorse.

With that mind set it is understandable that he doesn't want to become that. And even if he understands that it does cost House I can see him not wanting to be there either. And House understands better than anyone else. That's why he won't ask him to stay. It has to be his call. House doesn't want to be responsible for Foreman's emotional well being. He knows what it has cost him and I believe would not willingly place anyone in his shoes. Now if they want to go there on their own I think he'll do everything he can to prepare them (which is kind of what he is doing already) and make sure they are the best so they don't have to deal with those kinds of consequences too often.

Yes and no. By making Foreman feel useless I believe House is just trying to point out that he isn't ready. That he still has things to learn and that quitting isn't going to change that. I have always believed that House at his core is a teacher, second only to his curiousity. He feels he has not done his job with Foreman and because of previously stated reasons may not get a chance to correct mistakes and finish the job. And we all know how House hates unfinished business. If Foreman thinks he is ready he will be less likely to learn therefore remaining an unfinished puzzle.

But yes, Chase is right, Foreman needs to know that House isn't evil. He needs to know that things bother him so he knows that if he pursues this work under House that he will still feel and that he won't lose his humanity. But House will never let that out. Partly because he really believes that there is no place for that touchy feely stuff. That the patient's needs must prevail regardless of cost. But also because (and this is probably just my 'I love a wounded hero' side coming out) I think he feels if he relents even a little that he may not be able to keep things in check. Once the crack appears in the wall the weight will exploit that weakness and bring the whole thing crumbling down.

And also because I think he feels Foreman has to find his own way to deal with this. If he can't, House showing or telling Foreman that he is not evil won't help Foreman cope, it will do the opposite. Foreman will think it's okay to hesitate and get emotional which again, will make him useless in their particular line of work. In House's mind it serves no purpose. Foreman either needs to find a way to deal on his own or get out.

And as far as a young House being like Nate I agree with you and hl_lover to a degree. I don't see House's father being tolerant of that. But, might this be the root of the abuse? Things might have been fine and dandy until House started to get a mouth on him.

This may not be popular theory but in the brief glimpse we had of House's parents daddy House didn't strike me as a out of control rage freak. He and House are a little more alike than I think either would admit. Both have a purpose to what they do or did. I believe that John "disciplined" Greg and that he escalated that until the lesson was learned (again, not condoning the abuse, just looking at it from the abusers mindset). House is mean mentally and verbally to everyone around him and will escalate it until the purpose is served be it getting to the bottom of a medical mystery or getting Wilson to face facts and call a divorce lawyer.

But, I believe the intelligence and sarcasm have always been a part of his nature. Add that to the general hormones and 'know-it-all' attitudes of the teen years (which I strongly believe hit House at an earlier age than the actual teen years) and I can see him, at least once, answering a question in Nate's biting manner. I can also see John giving him a good backhand and that not being a deterant. I think it would have taken more than that to get a young House to reign in his sarcasm.

But, between discipline, abuse, and maturity(again, I think he was probably much more mature for his age most of his life so this adult outlook and maturity may have occured pre or early teens) I think he honed it to being purposeful. He would still have his entertainment but could argue intent in his defense (which leads to the whole not arguing in his own defense thing).

So I think that Nate, left unchecked, will just be a mean hurtful person who uses his intelligence and sarcasm to belittle those around him. But, would just normal discipline shape and mold him into a better person? Or would it take the extrordinary measures of House's father to do that? Not that the end results would ever condone abuse but it does raise one of those knotty House questions. What lengths should be gone to to make a person fit for society? Who decides what is 'fit' and/or what is too much? Should we let them be or lock them up? Do we wait until real harm is done of impliment preventative measures?

Well, once again I've bored you all to sleep. Sorry. :unsure:

AE, whenever you get around to it please drop by and comment. even if it's a month from now. :D Heck, I'm still trying to get caught up on fic stuff. I see you have a few newer ones I have yet to get to so I'm in the same boat.

And, how did I miss all the comments between Tpel's and hl_lovers? :blink: That was really really weird! They just showed up after I posted this. :unsure: I guess I'll go back and read and maybe make some more comments later. I've gone on enough for one day!

Hl_lover, Awwww, thanks. :) I miss you all too. I'll try to get over there today. I'll explain more in a reply.

My brother made a comment when we watched Resignation that started me thinking: When they learned (or thought they did) that Addie was going to die, Foreman sneered at House that he made it "all about him" even when a patient was dying. And yeah, House is self-centered a lot of the time. But House, for all of his evilness, saves patients, and the only reason Foreman has given for wanting to quit is that he doesn't want to turn into House. Isn't Foreman making it "all about" himself by quitting? He's refusing to learn from House anymore because "being like House as a doctor means being like House as a person." If Foreman was concerned about his patients above himself, wouldn't he not care what he had to become in order to save them? I don't think it has occurred to Foreman to look at it that way--he told House that he would "settle for killing less" patients, so he probably thinks he's doing what's best for them--but the fact that he resigned directly after his "being like House" saved a patient's life makes me think he's deluding himself if he thinks he's not being selfish. And that may be one of the reasons House doesn't think he's "ready."

So if his motives are selfish, does that make him more like House (in spite of himself), or less? :)

I agree. I think that if John had ever lost control, House would have recognized that and been able to feel superior to him despite whatever physical pain he was feeling. I suspect that one of the reasons House hates his dad is that he doesn't feel superior to him ("He hates being a disappointment," "I'd want him to say,'You were right'"). Nate, on the other hand, has no problem feeling superior to his mother--I think he knows that his contempt for her is justified, and I think House might wish he could have that too.

Assuming we're right about John's personality...most kids would at least take comfort in the fact that discipline, no matter how harsh it is, at least shows that the parent is paying enough attention to care about the way the kid turns out (I have a vague feeling that might be why Chase got so worked up in this episode when he watched Nate and his mom). But in House's case, I think if John had just flown off the handle and pounded him with a socket wrench or something equally awful, instead of deliberately setting consequences beforehand, House might have one less reason to dislike himself, no matter how loving John was trying to be by setting those consequences. Sucks. :unsure: