Well, I love it is getting old. Soooo much to love in this episode.

Okay, how many of you were just as worried about poor Steve as you were for Foreman?!

I think what I loved most about this episode was what it will lead to. How this whole event has changed, or will change everyone on the show. The changes that have taken place in this two-parter, will they last or will they go back to the way they were before. Will they change for a while and then drift back to the way they were?

Will this change the way House interacts with them? Will it change him at all? Or more accurately will we see the change if there is any?

Cameron had her b*tch on last night even more than the first part. I have to say that this has pulled me in a little. What is going on with that girl. I thinks she's trying to be something she's no,t maybe. Instead of finding a way to be who she is in the profession she has chosen and making it work, she's trying to change herself to fit and therefore is just so totally off balance and miserable that she can't be consistant in anything.

She wants to be mad at Foreman, and is on several levels, but she can't shed her caring attitude and that makes her even more angry.

Whatever it is, it's still annoying but now that some other elements are presenting themselves it's interesting.

I thought the House/Cuddy interaction was great. House was just being House when he brought Foreman's father in but I also think he knew the consequences if it didn't work. Which is interesting because it would seem that what Wilson said about House knowing the patient and caring about them changes his approach.

This stayed the same, and I think he knew that whether it worked or not Cuddy would be affected by that. That if Cuddy reacted as she did in "Humpty Dumpty" she would react the same here, possibly even more so because I think she has more of a 'relationship' with Foreman and the others than she had with her handyman. Was that what House was banking on? Tougher rules to break tougher approach to break it?

I need to think on that a bit more so please toss in your thoughts as I haven't been able to sort out the difference. Is it the fact that this manipulation won't cost Foreman his life so it's okay if it crushes Cuddy? Or does he figure Cuddy will get over it? Or does he just not consider Cuddy's feelings at all? That he is so focused on finding the answer that it never enters his mind what the effect might be on Cuddy?

I'll leave the rest for someone else to bring up (Benj, lfeflght don't let me down :lol: ;) ) but one last question, When Foreman didn't get the sample from the cops brain why didn't House have him close his eyes and feel his way to the right spot. Foreman used his hands to identify the pills later in the episode? Even though he doesn't know he's blind, he knows he's blind. I know, quit nitpicking! I probably wouldn't have thought of that in that situation so I can't blame them.

Oh, and the scene between Cuddy and Foreman...WOW. I can totally see both ends there. So nicely written and brilliantly acted!

Maybe I'm not getting the whole picture here, but it seems like if they went ahead and did the autopsy on the dead cop, they'd know what the disease was and could therefore treat whoever might have gotten infected as a result of doing the autopsy?...Anyway, poor CDC. They never come off looking too good on TV for some reason.

I liked the lighting in these two episodes--it was darker, a little more like the first season. And Hugh's acting remained excellent. I really expected House to take more action than he did, though. I was sure he was going to find a way to autopsy the cop and consequences be damned, but (except for the scene where he broke the vial in Foreman's room) he seemed passive, almost helpless, during most of this episode. Which was a good idea--it goes to Wilson's argument about this not being just some other case for House, no matter how much House wants it to be.

I am going to just state for the record that Steve is really the most adorable rat I have ever seen (and I've seen a few) and yes, RT, I was rooting for him maybe even more than I was Foreman, because Steve wasn't acting like a jerk the whole time. Understandable, and very well-played, but still slightly irritating.

Loved House watching Foreman go through echoes of what he himself went through in "Three Stories." He had a rather hollow look on his face when Foreman woke up and said he couldn't feel any more pain--again, really well-played. :)

House's "Old South" T-shirt-- <_< No comment.

All right. What happened right after Cameron agreed to be Foreman's proxy and went into the hallway and saw House? There was a stormtracker update that definitely couldn't wait for commercials and I missed that whole scene. :angry:

Well, at least I'm not the only one who was more concerned about Steve than Foreman.

Cameron being Foreman's medical proxy was, in my opinion, the ultimate exercise in trust with those two, especially considering their behavior lately.

And Cameron, well... She's finally getting away from her goody-goody nature and toughening up. You go, girl!

I think my favorite part--or one of them, anyway--was when Foreman woke up at the end and House is asking for names "Cameron... my Dad... and the manipulative bastard. Priceless.

I liked it because we saw a side of house we are not use to seeing. That I believe most of us suspected their to be not really sure until last night especially the way he showed compassion showing that he does care for his ducklings more then just on a proffessional level.

Strangly, this episode didn't really make me like Foreman again. He didn't honestly patch things up with Cameron, he manipulated and used her, even if she did cave and forgive him at the end (says far more in her favor than anything about him). She was right the first time: he was only apologizing because he thought he was dying and wanted to go out on moral high ground.

He really is a lot like House, only quite frankly he's much less sympathetic because's he's not above harming others for personal gain (like stealing cameron's paper or stabbing her to get her to risk her own life by going to the apartment) whereas House's nastyness is usually geared toward saving someone else. House manipulates people to solve problems, Foreman manipulates people to further his own ends.

It's a shame really, he was my favorite duckling for a while. Right now, I don't have a favorite duckling, though Chase is probably the least annoying at the moment.

Third, on the Steve worry. First I thought maybe the rat in question was the cop's pet. When House revealed it was Steve my reaction was, "Oh, no. Not Steve!" I voiced concern as to how warped I am that Foreman getting sick is just a blip on the radar, but they mess with Steve and then I worry. Of course I'm the one who read Stephen King's Green Mile series with a dry eye except for the part where it seems Mr. Jingles, the highly talented mouse, died;that part made me cry for an hour.

I was totally wondering about the parallels between House during the infarction and Foreman in quarantine. I guess we'll never really know for sure. The part I latched on to was when House talked about pain and the fear of pain leading to bad decisions. I'm pretty sure House was talking about himself there, but I'm not sure what it means. What was the bad decision? Keeping the leg? Not getting help sooner? Trusting Stacy? Asking to be put in the induced coma? I honestly don't know.

On Foreman, I don't know that his apology improved my view of him either. The apology was probably sincere, but it was still because of fear of death. I mean that as he thought he might be dying he realized that it was something that he wasn't proud of, but it shouldn't have taken nearly dying for him to figure it out. Also, sure it's okay that House breaks rules right and left, so long as it benefits you, but if it's for another patient then he has to be by the book. Yeah, right.

Cameron, did not tick me off this time. She stayed compassionate, but the self-righteousness was mostly absent as was the whine factor.

And if the situations of House and Foreman are parallel, then maybe we know why Stacy was the medical proxy rather than one of House's parents. Stacy was more familiar with House as he was, so she got the proxy. Maybe not. We've debated in depth on it so who knows.

And finally, confimation on House and not seeing patients. I do believe part of it is because House is highly annoyed by people in general, but it is also a way to avoid attachment that would interfere with diagnosis.

I lied, one more thing. While "All In" is touted as House at his wit's end, I think this episode is more suited to that title. "All In" was serious and time was running out for the patient, but House always had an idea about what to try next. In this one there were times when he wasn't sure what to do at all. And I'll jump on the bandwagon. I loved this one.

Oh, and a strange note: the fridge in the cop's apartment is exactly the same model, as far as I can tell, as the one my parents once had. I'm not sure if I'm disturbed or amused by that (FYI the fridge in question was purchased in 1974, making it older than I am). :unsure:

I agree. Although, I did feel bad for him... I've got to join in with the more worried about Steve thing. But I think that's actually to be expected - we knew Foreman couldn't actually die - but Steve definitely could have.

I've never really agreed with the Foreman=House thing. They have a lot of huge differences. And while this episode did show me the similarities in a lot of ways, it also showed how different they are. Foreman fought for his life desperately, to the point of putting someone else in danger, and was willing to risk becoming disabled, whereas House really wouldn't choose either. He would have rather died. Of course, in retrospect, I think he's glad to be alive. But. Still, they had almost opposite reactions to their lives being in danger.

And I think that's why in the big picture of the world of House this is an important episode. It's not just a manipulative sweeps cliffhanger stunt. The writers have satisfied the network and yet made this so much more than a stunt.

I think all the ducklings have similarities with House but Foreman was the closest. This showed those differences and in my mind showed why Foreman will never be House. But it did give Foreman a ton to think about in relation to his perception of House and his methods and motivations. Will this near death experience and his new insights lead him to make the deeper changes that will make him more self sacrificing?

Even if he does I don't think he'll be "just like House". House still has a lot of secrets and, even though Foreman does too, it is likely that their motivations for doing things the way they do will still be widely different and probably still cause conflict. I'm basing this theory on things that the ducklings have done in past episodes, which House would have done, but House has called them on their motivations for doing it.

Good point on the Steve angle. They can get rid of Steve at any point whereas we'd have heard about Omar leaving the show before it even aired.

And the silly side note for this post...

Wow! is Steve getting fat!! House, you've got to stop with the rat kibble and get him on an excercise program!! Take him for a walk for Pete's sake! ANd teasing him with all that garbage was not nice. See, he doesn't treat Steve any different than he treats Wilson. Hmmmm, does that mean if he didn't have Steve he'd have taken Wilson to Joe's appartment?! :huh: ;) :lol:

I guess it goes to show how worried House was about Foreman, that he was willing to risk Steve. Brave brave rat.

Cameron's response to Foreman's apology was good. I agree. We need to see more of that, and less "You stole my paper" kind of stuff.

I can't believe no one picked up that needle before Foreman did. That seems pretty unlikely to me.

I too freaked out when Foreman jabbed Cameron. At that point, he crossed the line to "manipulative bastard". Though he will likely cross back.

Foreman euphoric was scary. If my doc ever acted like that, I'd flip out.

No, I don't think Foreman is House either. If anything, all three ducklings together are House.

When I was talking about the parallels, I was initially thinking more of the memories that seeing Foreman in a dire situation would reawaken in House. Not only is House dealing with someone he actually has somewhat of a relationship with in a potentially fatal situation, but the person is a brilliant physician (House is by far more brilliant and always will be, but we've been led to believe that House doesn't take just anyone as a fellow) who is used to be in control, but suddenly is not.

You are right though this episode proved even more that while Foreman has some characteristics of House he is most definitly not House.

And yes, I guess that the sub conscious knowledge the Omar Epps has a contract, whereas Steve "The Rat" McQueen does not helps. I do have to say though I'm the type who can read and hear about horrible things happening to people, but can't stand animals in harm's way. Tangentally, I was reading about abandoned cats last night and wound up with tears streaming down my face, my nose running non-stop (if only I could blame it on allergies), and my fist jammed in my mouth so that my sobs wouldn't disturb the other, sleeping or at least trying to sleep, people in the house.

Something I forgot -

It sounds like Forman's mother has alzheimers or some similar deteriorating condiction of the brain.

Could this have influenced Forman's decision to become a neurologist?

I say yes.

PS, "Ooh, level 3! Call Jack Bauer!" :D

Oh, good point about the Alzheimer's thing, RealRazumihin. That could definitely be a factor in the neurology interest. (I wonder what ever made House decide to go for nephrology... - coincidentally, I've been seeing lots of nephrologists lately...)

Exactly! I think so too. Foreman's arrogance, brilliance and balls, Chase's laziness, suspiciousness and closed-offness, and Cameron's obsessiveness, strength of principles and idealism (although House has different principles and his idealism is definitely a very different brand than Cameron's).

Oh, good point about the Alzheimer's thing, RealRazumihin. That could definitely be a factor in the neurology interest. (I wonder what ever made House decide to go for nephrology... - coincidentally, I've been seeing lots of nephrologists lately...)

Exactly! I think so too. Foreman's arrogance, brilliance and balls, Chase's laziness, suspiciousness and closed-offness, and Cameron's obsessiveness, strength of principles and idealism (although House has different principles and his idealism is definitely a very different brand than Cameron's). Also a touch of vulnerability of both Cameron and Chase. And father issues seen in Chase and now Foreman as well.

Oh, good point about the Alzheimer's thing, RealRazumihin. That could definitely be a factor in the neurology interest. (I wonder what ever made House decide to go for nephrology... - coincidentally, I've been seeing lots of nephrologists lately...)

Exactly! I think so too. Foreman's arrogance, brilliance and balls, Chase's laziness, suspiciousness and closed-offness, and Cameron's obsessiveness, strength of principles and idealism (although House has different principles and his idealism is definitely a very different brand than Cameron's). Also a touch of vulnerability of both Cameron and Chase. And father issues seen in Chase and now Foreman as well.

(Off topic - hey look I'm a Duckling now! Yay!)

Oh, good point about the Alzheimer's thing, RealRazumihin. That could definitely be a factor in the neurology interest. (I wonder what ever made House decide to go for nephrology... Odd choice. (Coincidentally, I've been seeing lots of nephrologists lately...))

Exactly! I think so too. Foreman's arrogance, brilliance and balls, Chase's laziness, suspiciousness and closed-offness, and Cameron's obsessiveness, strength of principles and idealism (although House has different principles and his idealism is definitely a very different brand than Cameron's). Also a touch of vulnerability of both Cameron and Chase. And father issues seen in Chase and now Foreman as well.

(Off topic - hey look I'm a Duckling now! Yay!)

So much in this but standout awesomeness.House's conversation with Foreman about pain vs fear of pain was hugely well done. Loved Chase telling Foreman's dad that they were about to put him out- reminded me of the Daddy's Boy scene. Foreman's old man - the guest played him so well. The clinic kid was fabulous - that was gold. Cuddy sticking to it over the autopsy and House for wanting to do it - so in character. Cameron/Foreman? I have to be honest and say the whole needle/proxy/apology business left me a little cold. Why did Victim Cameron have to be the one stuck with the needle? Then the whole sorry/be my proxy didn't feel right. The snide at Cuddy cheesed me off but I loved the rest so much I will just blank those parts.

Another question - did it finish up with Foreman getting his left/right confused? My copy finished really abruptly and I wondered if that really was it?

Yes, Foreman raised the wrong arm (left instead of right) and couldn't wiggle his toes. Yet in the preview for next time, he appeared to be up and around. We'll see.

I'm wondering whose parents we see next. Chase is out of parents (poor guy); Foreman's were just dealt with; and even House's have made an appearance. Wilson's maybe? Or Cameron's? I bet Cuddy's would be amusing.

Or maybe Steve's? :D

We see them every show - Daddy House and Mummy Wilson :)

Step-Mummy Wilson. I think maybe Stacy should be considered the Mum - he was from her attic, and she was there for the naming. Heh.

Actually, that's sort of the set-up with the ducklings too. House said to them once, about Stacy, "Mommy and Daddy are just having a little fight. It doesn't mean we don't love you," and then later called Wilson and said, "Hi, honey, how are the kids?" :)

Steve has had a pretty rough time recently - Cameron should love him. First off - Stacy inadvertantly poisoning him with fag smoke, House takes him to the Apartment Of Impending Death and most distressing? Parents fighting him in front of him before Mummy stormed out! He needs some rat lovin' - least House could do in return would be to find him a rat mate.

Sy_Dedalus wrote an awesome little scene for an up-coming fic of hers all about Steve (the scene that is, not the entire up-coming fic). here There is mentioning of a rat-mate. :)

They could have ratlings, and every duckling could have a pet ratling, and-

Ok, no more typing with the flu. All sorts of strange ideas.