What do you all have to say about evolution? I think it's a very logical reason as to how we all came to be the way that we are. It seems impossible for the world to have been around so long and not have changed at all.

However, I have a good friend that's a Christian Fundamentalist and gets quite moody whenever we learn about evolution or the "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" thing. What I don't understand about her is how she claims to be such a devout Christian but cannot comprehend that God may work in different ways. I sense an underlying insecurity that "uh oh, if it's not the Bible word for word, then AHH! my God doesn't exist!"

I believe in God, but I think that he can work through other things. If you think that God likes to be controlling all of the time then you must not believe in free will, either.

So... God? Science? Or Both?

I am not religious - meaning I don't belong to any religious group and probably won't ever but I am a spritual person, and do believe in a force that one could very well describe as god.

And well, of course I don't believe in the Bible - leave along that it contradicts itself along it's way, and is far too old a piece of advice to be perfectly applicable to today. So I obviously don't believe in Adam and Eva...

But also I can't believe that everything is just chance...
It is just... too enourmous to grasp, and the more I learn about biological life, of geography and all the other sciences the less I can believe that science is the only thing that exists.

Just a few days ago I saw a BBC report on how life might have come to the earth in the first place. And it told of new research results that they found simple aminoacids in meteores which, by the impact of the force of heat and pressure (when they hit the earth) would link to complicated Protein structures and so provide our Earth with the first trace of life.
(Lol so we are technically all aliens...)
But what I wanted to say to that is... where do that comes from then???

Everything that exist has to have a beginning...
And I talk of existance not in the "Cogito ergo sum" way (I think, therefore I am), but something with aphysical extension.
God, in my eyes not having that, might have been there forever...

I don't know... :)

I'm not religius either, but God may exist, who knows? I'd like to believe in the scientific theory, but then its like an ink shop exploding making the works of Shakespeare, isn't it? And that's not likely at all (I am refering to the big bang, which has a one in a billion chance of happening).
I don't believe in Adam and Eve either, otherwise we'd all be brothers and sisters, and incest would be commited which is just...unlikely, although I believe A God is there somewhere.

Another thing that baffles me is the universe. I don't have aclue about that. Is it expanding? Moving in and out? What? I don't think we will ever really find out.

That's exactly what I consider myself as!

Anyway, I studied this last year at school, so let's see if it pays off now (Lol!).

Along the years there have been hundreeds of theories about the beginning on life and evolution, and most of them have been proven wrong. There is no proof that any of the contemporaneus (??) theories for the beginning of life is the absolute truth, and personally, I don't think humans will ever know the absolute truth. I don't totally discard the posibility of there being some unnatural force that created life on Earth, but regarding evolution, I think the theories nowadays have very strong foundations. I believe in what I've studied: that species have evolved with the years to adapt themselves to the changes on the environment and thus survive. There are many tiny details I have huge doubts about on the evolution theory, but mainly, I believe in it.

Concerning the beginning of life, I'm not that sure, and just as Kierra said, I don't think we'll ever know the truth.

Life would lose it's sense if we knew the answers to all our questions...

If anyone is interested in that point I can explain some other time I am too dead tired :)
hug
Laila

Of course! That's why I try to keep myself from asking that kind of unanswerable questions, like how everything started.

I ask it to myself all the time, just as something to ponder, but I never drive myself crazy like, "I HAVE TO KNOW THE ANSWERS TO EVERYTHING!!! AHHH!!!"

I don't think the two contradict each other at all. I don't hold much of the Bible to be literal...if I think of it at all, I generally think of such things as the tale of Adam and Eve as just that - a tale...a fable. Every culture has to have some way to describe how they came to be. Just like some Native American cultures believe that the earth started as a turtle's back. It's all mythology. And it is important, but I personally believe that we have to think about who wrote the Bible and what the motivations were. Who commissioned the Bible and decided what chapters could be included??

In fact...the more you learn about life and the universe, I find there is more cause to believe in a creation force. Life is so intricate - the universe is so complex. All the millions of biochemical pathways that occur in your body every day are so 'beautiful' and interlocking. My roomate's grandfather was a rather famous veterinary entimologist whose co-workers were always confused about how he could be so devotely Christian (how can a scientist believe in God?). He asked them how they could be Athiests when they had such intimate knowledge of the vastly intricate ways in which we and the earth continue to exist.

I personally haven't made up my mind about the existence of God. As I have said in another thread...I was raised Catholic and my formal training has been quite a bit less spiritual in nature. I don't mind not knowing what I think...eventually I'll figure it out for myself. I do believe wholeheartedly in Evolution, as to me, it makes sense. And the Big Bang makes sense to me as well.

In my grade 11 history class...we did an essay about how evolution and creationism do not conflict - but in fact, how they can complement each other. We are only limited by the box we design for ourselves.

I am a Christian and I do believe in God.

I believe that he created us and the world, but I have no idea how he did it. I don't know alot of the answers to the questions we all ask. My opinion is that there is a divine knowledge and that we, as humans, are simply to stupid to be able to fully understand it. We are not perfect and all of the answers are, therefore we don't deserve or have any idea of what these answers may be. I do know that God works in mysterious ways and that those mysterious ways do or don't involve how humans believe we "evolved."

but to reflect on an earlier point, everything in human systems runs so perfectly to the point where most anything is correctable and works together, man couldn't have made a better design. That is one reason I believe there is something that designed us.

I'm a christian too and I believe in the same things... But I think science was ment to help us and show us new things god created for us than to hinder us. In short all I have to say is I don't belive in evolution but I do love the art of science.

I believe in God and that he created the world and all it contains. We are able to create certain things, but God started it all out. I am also a Christian. I think that we are to stupid to understand everything that God did. Maybe someday we will understand it. I certainly can't though. Science is there to help us learn about the world around us. We have to make the decision what to believe in though. Science just presents the facts to us.

My two cents...

I love this forum!

Luvs

Sarah

WHOO! Thanks Sarah. I was waiting for someone to mention the word "facts."

I think the problem is that people get the words "truth" and "fact" mixed up.

Just because the Old Testament (primarily Genesis) may be true doesn't mean that it may be factual, if I'm making any sense to you.

In other words, we may have the general gist of what's going on, but we can't take the Bible word for word literal. I think that the Bible was what humans wrote down. God didn't write the Bible. He gave people ideas for it and helped them along, but God didn't take a sheet of paper and a pen, sit down, and an hour later hand a man the first copy of the Bible.

Plus, the Bible has been translated and retranslated so many times and from languages that no one speaks anymore that we really have no way of knowing what was originally written down.

I'm a little tired right now...So Rach are you saying you agree with my point of view?

Sarah

basically..

and in my opinion the bible was God speaking through the people... so in a way he did write it down...

but translations do hinder it a bit..

that part I agree on fully

Sarah - sort of... really you just had reminded me of what I was going to say when you said "facts"

Both.

I mean, i believe in Darwin and the whole evolution theory ...but let's get into the idea that it's more than amazing the way we could change, and in an amazing way!!

And the stars ... the space... no matter if the big bang really existed or not, i mean, the whole universe itself is a wonderful and mysterious thing, that even if i don't believe in Adam and Eva (i found it a little bit dumb...) but like Einstein said (and it was quote at A walk to remember :P) Einstein said the more he studied the universe, the more he believed in a higher power.

So i guess we could think a little about that too

luvly
andie

Personally, I don't see how anyone can consider themself devout and deny that the divine being might have been smart enough to think up evolution. I mean, compared to calculating the precise gravitational balance necessary to keep the solar system together and collision-free (much less a galaxy, and whatever unit the galaxies make up), a simple trick like hereditary adaptation is kind of a no-brainer.

Warning: I have a very negative look on religion (I had several bad experiences with people who where religious and deemed it necessary to insult or hurt me very badly becase of their believes). Do not read it if you cannot handle a negative outlook on christianity. I do not want to offend anyone, I have nothing against people who are religious...I respect everyone who can believe in something bigger...cause they have faith and I don't. But please leave me with my believes to.

Personally I don't have much with religion,
maybe it is because I was brought religious. But the older I get the more the bible seems to me as a book that loads of people made up so that they don't have to think for themselves anymore. So that they could say: it's God's way and that is it. Evolution seems to me a far more logical way to explain everything that is going on around us.

Besides believing in God would for me be like: there is purpose...there is a plan for this world. Well I cannot see that...everything is just random. I believe in my own free will and not in some divine entity who controls my every move!

My step-mother told me that one God's day is millions of years for humans. So basicly God made evolution.
I belive in normal evolution theory myself though.

I'm a Christian but even if I wasn't, I wouldn't believe in evolution.

I believe in adaptation but that's not the same thing. I think that some people confuse the too. Some forms of adaptation happen slowly over time, creating the illusion of an evolving species. But other forms of it can actually be witnessed as they happen so sometimes it's easy to assume the fast moving changes are adaptation and the slow changes are evolution.

Basically I think the theory of evolution has too many holes. I know all theories do otherwise they would be laws, however so many scientists have proved against spontaneous generation (After this experiment, people were willing to acknowledge that "larger" organisms didn't arise by spontaneous generation, but had to have parents) that

Evolutionism claims that over billions of years everything is basically developing UPWARD, becoming more orderly and complex. However, a basic law of science (The Second Law of Thermodynamics) says the opposite.

"Every system, left to its own devices, always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability (for work), ultimately becoming totally random and unavailable for work."

Here's a few websites I've researched a bit.

Creation vs. Evolution
Brief Creation Evidence

Again, not believing in evolution does not have anything to do with my religious beliefs. It does seem logical to say that God created evolution, and He very well may have but though I respect that theory, and all theories (even evolution), I am content with Creationism.

I believe in the Creation...Adam and Eve and all of that...but what Kierra said was pretty funny because it got me thinking...in some way...we're all related...interesting, isn't it? ;) Thanks Kierra, for getting my mind going...you gave me something to ponder about on all these long trips I have been taking lately!(only Kierra and Sandra know what I'm talking about though. ;) )

-Andie

I agree with what someone ^ said earlier ^. God set the events in motion that would eventually begin evolution. God oversaw the process, so to speak, and made sure that everything was chugging along as it should.

I'm a Jew, and I do believe in God, but not in the traditional sense of a fatherly figure who watches our every move. I believe that God lives and has a part in everything, even things that are man-made. God and beauty and joy and light... they all coexist and are one great spirit. God has no gender or race or political affiliation, God simply is, in every possible way.

Personally, I think if I were God, I would think it loads of fun to just set a bunch of little one celled life forms out on their own and see what they become.


Not that I am God or anything. Just a teensy comment.

I know this is an old discussion, but I just want to give my point of view as noone really has mentioned it yet. Like ninque elen I'll have to warn you that I'm not religious, and I might offend you... I don't have anything against any religion, and personally if I had to chose, I'd choose Budhism...

In most aspects I agree with ninque elen:

I think everything happened randomly... I know the chances of Big Bang might have been really small, but if Big Bang hadn't happened we wouldn't have been here to wonder about it... If you get what I mean??? I'll try to explain it better...
Evolution: How big are the chances of a single cell evolving into a green alien??? Not that big. How big are the chances of a single cell evolving into a human being?? Not that big. But I believe it happened. We could have been green aliens, but we aren't, and I believe that is simply luck. So the fact that we sit here and wonder today is simply luck.

I find it very interesting what Kitten has written (Kitten has written - lol), and I'll have to give that some thourght. My only idea is that it is simply survival of the fittest. If an ecological system doesn't work it will break down. Leaving space for another system to try. If this system doesn't work ether another system has the chance, and so it goes on until a system finally finds a balance. We will never know about the other systems because they obviously didn't survive till our time.

Another thing I agree with ninque elen in is that religion is made up by humans. We are scared of what we don't know. Like people are scared of what comes after death, so when somebody makes up the story about heaven, people want to believe in it, because it is much better than not knowing what happens. I personally don't think there is anything after this life. Everything we think and feel is in our brain, and when we die it stops working, and that's that.

I hope I made sense

P.S. Here are some other views that I find very interesting:

- When asked if God exsists: "The question is complex, and life is short" (Protagoras)
- "The universe has always been, and will always be." (A friend of mine)

I disagree, fnugge. If there was nothing then there'd still be nothing. Time doesn't change things. Things change over time.

By the way, God doesn't control our every move, he gave us free will in the beginning, hoping that in free will we turn to him. Whenever things happen to us, it's him trying to get our attention, because he loves us all. That's why we were put here, atleast that's what I believe, and I'm not forcing anyone to believe it with me. I've seen enough with my own eyes to know truly, that God exists, and studying Ancient History, it becomes even more spine-tinglingly true when you date events.


:heartbeat: Pat

I would want to say as well that I am not religous, I do respect those who are and expect the same in return. Please do not take offense.

A lot of you have valid points, but as much as I can marvel at people that believe, I have seen more bad then good come from religion. As Dana said when people are to afraid to think for themselves they let one write rules.

Where is god in war, where is he when innocents are raped and murdered. This can be taken back to the free will point, but still... Religion is thaught behaviour. If some one tells you at a young age that there is a god, then you will believe. If not being told, you wouldn't believe. One can not truly say they believe until old enough to discover for their own and being able to see different religions

I do terribly believe in science, it is a proven fact that in the thousand years before us our DNA has evolved, not adapted. I do agree that both are very different. We became smarter, faster until we are what we are now. Even in this day of age prove keeps rising above that our DNA is slowly changing. this is evolution.

new species are discovered yearly, some primal, some with advanced systems. If we had not evolved we would not be on this board discussing this, instead we would be searching each others furs for fleas. Because we still could have adapted in those surcumstances.

I do find this a very good topic. It questions the connection between two very different worlds.

No one knows how we came to exist, and no one knows how we will end. I personally think that humans won't exist anymore in a thousand years. We have become a destructive, violant race with a lust for blood (generally speaking people.) We all know the earth is in bad shape and that we are draining her. Still we abuse it. Maybe it has started with a bang and it will end with a bang..
But nobody was there, so we will never know. And I love not knowing and I love to question everything. And If I lived my life well and there is a heaven, I will end up there and be forced to say: I was wrong.

On a more personal note, I do not believe in a higher power a such, I believe in a subconsious. the tingle at your neck that says you should take a detour tonight or that good things will happen. The voice that tells you wrong from right. I believe in me. I a bold and maybe arrogant statement: I am my own god.

I don't know if it makes me strange but-as a Christian- I don't really feel all that threatened by the idea that human beings may have evolved. Guess that means I don't necessarily 100% take everything in the Bible literally. But then, I believe in a God Who could just as easily create through evolution as He could have created everything in seven literal days. (must. resist. urge. to. quote. Eddie. Izzard. Mmph... hehe...)

Bazillions of years? Maybe. Seven days? Could be. The zillions of possibilities in between? Perhaps... *shrugs*

The bottom line is that I don't think it being one way or the other makes God any more or less real, or takes away from what I believe Christ did for this world (and everyone on it, etc etc).

So there that is ^_^

(Iwillnotstartramblingaboutx-menIwillnotstartramblingaboutx-menIwillnotstart... *cough*... :laugh: )

(ps. Pat- I really like your new avy :))

I actually saw a program on tv the other day, and using DNA and scientific research they proved that all humans came from one man, one man. Uno. One. Ena. Un. Itch. I don't know what one is in any other language but you get me point.


thanks Jules. :hug: Are you still suposablyrox on AIM? I've changed my sn and want to add you.

:heartbeat: Pat

Offcourse we all descend from the same man.
The world had to start somewhere.
But as much as I do admire your beliefs, that fact too can be explained based on science.
Every species start with one male and female.

Sure am, so feel free :)

ps. The fact that something can be explained through science doesn't mean it wasn't divinely worked out. I mean, I certainly wouldn't put it past God to create things put together just right, in a way that we as the curious creatures we are can work to try to understand... *shrug* I certainly don't mean to offend, just that, I don't think science and faith necessarily have to be mutually exclusive- not always anyway :)

I absolutley agree with that, both things do not have to exclude each other.
But since I have not been raised in a religous matter, science speaks more to me.
I do believe in something greater than all of us. You might call it God. For me it has no name it is a feeling of some sorts..

Gah... so difficult to explain in a post, when you want to sau so much

Yea, don't worry about it. In the words of Marty McFly; this is heavy stuff.

("Weight has nothing to do with it!?"... hehe...)

Yeah I know, but it's just stays difficult.

The two things stand so apart from each other and I have quite the rational outlook on life. Living it from the point of that science explains most. On the other hand I so much need to believe in something more to help it make sense to me. A bigger picture of some sort. I have only never been able to find that in religion and I often wonder how I would've turned out had I been raised with the idea of a God.

I am very grateful for my parent's realistic upbringing though and they thankfully never held me back when I came home with information on all kinds of different religions... But the concept sort of scares me... I know I am not making any sense, but don't you find it strange that the basics of all religion is the same. often it's just that the gods have a different name, and the details are different. But still so many people fight out of name of their faith, believing their own as the only true faith.

On the other hand I have seen people put their lives in the hands of something you can't see. I've heard their prayers and saw hope in their eyes. And that is something I can't help but admire for I could never do that.

But I am totally straying from the subject. I still believe that when it comes to the existance of live the rules of nature apply and not the rules of religion. (though I must say the thought is quite beatiful)

I agree with you. Religion is really beautiful. I think it must be so much easier if you believe in something, I just can't.

In some way all religions just tell us to be nice to each other and then we'll go to heaven (or equal), and that's a very nice thought. It's just a shame some people believe their belief is the ONLY true, and this is what starts war. But that's not the fault of the religion, that's just us humans.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is just that religion is a very good thing. Sorry I'm straying of the topic as well, just had to say it. I love diskussing religion... Lol

Just a few quick thoughts:

Thought #3: Starts wars, sometimes yes, but in a very misguided way. Horrible things have been done "in Christ's name," just like so many other religions. But believing one's faith to be the True one also leads to missionaries in Africa, at home, and a bazillion other places. It leads to homeless people being treated like human beings (and given hot chocolate, haha) when others would turn away. It leads to a girl who's just had the crud beaten out of her by her ex being dropped off safely at home (several miles away, and after dark), by a complete stranger, who asked for nothing in return. In the right place it leads to acts of great charity, selflessness, and peace.

But yes, sometimes it also is the cover cause of war. Really though, isn't it hatred rather than love and faith that leads to war? I may not agree with people, but I'm called to love them regardless, because of my faith...

So there that is :) Sorry to still be off topic (but heck, go where the discussion takes ya eh?)...

I guess most of this has been said before, but I couldn't resist adding my two cents.

personally, I find it really unnerving that the Catholic Church and Charles Darwin have made their peace with one another long ago, but that recently this compromise has been challenged for no reason at all other than starting a new uncalled-for argument. There is no logical proof whatsoever that the Bible and evolution aren't the same at heart. If you look at the process of creation in the Bible and compare it to the process of evolution, you will see that the chronological order of events match, and that every day of creation more or less equals a stage in evolution. We have to consider that the Bible was written 2,000 years ago, when science was nonexistent. And for that it is astonishingly accurate compared to Darwin's theories.

I find it very dangerous that different ways of perceiving reality are beginning to overstep their boundaries.

The Bible explains that God created the earth, life and everything.

Science explains how he might have done that, since nobody can tell for sure. You must always remember that science is only right until someone proves a certain theory wrong (the earth being the center of the universe is all I'm saying). Faith and science are partners who add good things to each other's content. They're not supposed to be enemies.

mixing those two up is just wrong.