Hey gals and Logan *grins*

We really need more guys in here... the doom of every fanboard...

Anyway, back to topic:


I saw the news today and they showed this speech of George Bush where he reacted to Kerry etc.
And what really shocked me was that he really wanted to change constitution to define marriage as something secluded to one man and one woman.
Is that the last he can up with to save his power?!
And does he really think that will save him? I mean a change of constitution only for the sake of profounding prejudices, hatred, fear and ignorance?!

We could also just do it as Schwarzenegger suggested, that "The homosexual marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman..." *sigh* Sad when stupidity and power coincide.

I mean seriously what is there to contradict?!

There is really few... my favorite thing what weirdly enough only men come up with is: "Homosexuality is wrong because humans are made to reproduce and since in a gay relationshit the semen doesn't seek an ovum it is wrong"
Sad to how less ppl resign themselves... a baby-robot... wonderful.
And also every bloody act of masturbation... performed by a man :-P would lead to the same problem.

I really don't understand it... also why it would contradict to christianity. I am not christian, but I hold every bet that Jesus wouldn't have anything against homosexuals. Seriously he had whores among his friends...


Sadly this is really not a George Bsh problem, since here in germany, what is really considered a very liberal country homosexuals can't marry yet, tjough it always is in the discussions... I hope it will soon, it's the right thing in my eyes...


what do you think it?
and feel free to correct me... I liek hearing contradicting opinions...

love
Laila

Well I'm really interested in this topic.

Here in Argentina, a couple of months ago the first homosexual couple got married, since that kind of marriage has only been legal for very little time. Anywho, that marriage brought along a whole lot of comments from many people. This homosexual union (whose name I can't remember right now) was asking for them to have rights as a couple, like inheritance, and medical coverage, stuff like that. They claimed that they had the same rights as het couples, and I believe they're right. After all, everything that is different from a heterosexual relationship is well, the fact that both the partners are from the same sex, the way they make love, and the fact that they can't have kids. Every other difference is a product of our society's prejudices.

I kind of understand the position of the Catholic church. I mean, its position has always been such of a conservator, and I don't see why they should change now ( :rolleyes: ) but I think they're being a bit intolerant with this matter. There've been - worldwide - gay priests who have been punished for their sexual inclination, and I think that completely wrong. Reminds me of the Inquisition (sp?) -_-

Never the less, in some cases homosexual people don't really respect the church. When it was the last Gay Pride Parade here, some of the people participating graffittied the Cathedral of my city. That is plain wrong. I agree that the church should understand and respect homosexual people's choice for their love life, but they just can't do that!

What I think is that respect is needed from both parties.

I completely agree with you on that.
That change will only tear homosexual people apart from heterosexuals, and will deepen the discrimination that they unfairly have to suffer.

*sigh*
I could go on about this for hours, but I won't.

In the end, I think this is all a matter of tolerance and respect for one another.

First I must define one of my beliefs: Homosexuality is not normal.

Now I'm not saying that homosexuals are evil or against the church or anything like that. But it's not normal, just as many things that people are born with are not normal, like cerebral palsy or a heart defect.

I'm not supportive of gay marriage, but as a minor there's not really much that I can do to either promote or discourage it.

I'm not so much against gay marriage, though, as I am against gay adoption. I believe that being homosexual is determined not only by a genetic "mutation," if you will, but by the environment that a child grows up in. Many of us are straight not only because our instincts tell us to be, but because we see our mother and father together in a heterosexual relationship. If children are adopted by gay parents, they would see two women or two men together and think of it as the norm.

And I don’t think that the church is really involved so much in the decision of gay marriage. I’m sure there are fundamentalist Christians out there that are totally anti-gay, but the church’s problem is more with sex outside of marriage. Since gay people cannot be married yet, when they have sex it’s outside of marriage. I think that were gays allowed to be married, some churches wouldn’t have a problem with gays any more because the gays were having sex within marriage.

My Christian denomination isn’t very supportive of gays either, and no, I’m not Roman Catholic. I’ll surprised if none of you have heard about the controversy with an Episcopal (my denomination, a division of the Church of England) Bishop that was elected after being openly gay. He and his partner had, of course, been having sex. And, of course, this sex was outside marriage, which is something my and most other churches prohibit.

It's hard to take a stand on this issue. There aren't really any reasons why not to (other than my spiel about gay adoption), but there aren't really any reasons why they should be able to.

I don't think it's wrong. I think that men and men could marry each other, and that women can do the same thing. Why shouldn't they marry if they love each other. People shouldn't care, cause it's not them who going to marry the same sex. Plus it's not their life.

I think George Bush, is so wrong! He can't make Homosexuals marry a men/women! I don't like that Idea, Like I said before he should care what they do. What if they do get married, is he going to kill them or something. Cause it kinda looks like it! He has no right doing that. If he was a homosexual, he would understand! But he's not in their place, so he should at least listen to them!

Well that what I think.

Hmm...

I think it is dangerous to define something as "not normal"...
But that is just myself and probably my german roots, that make me very liberal...
This is in no way an offense or an attack, but just 65 years ago homosexuals died next to jews and gypsies in german concentration camps - because it was considered "not normal"...

The way you put it, it sounds to me like a desease, something you can give on to your kids. But I mean I know a girl quite well who grew up with her lesbian mother and her partner, and she is completely straight. There is actually nothing unusuall at all about her and her little sister, you would never guess how they live if you wouldn't know.

I mean, what is "normal" anyway? And is it something one would want to achieve being?

And I mean seriously about Gay Adoption: A homosexual couple can't be pregnant by accident, therefore every child they adopt or have (in case of women) through artificial insemination must be a child of their wish - and can therefore hope for a much happier childhood then one it's parents just had because it was to late to abort it.

Just my opinion...

And again, I'm glad I live in Holland where gay-marriage is legal. Isn't that wonderful?

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be and I could strangle Bush just for that. I can't believe people still believe that God is against homosexual people, because that's just the biggest crap ever. And no, I'm not going to apologize to people who are offended by this.

It's a shame that people are still so narrow-minded and think that men shouldn't love men, or women shouldn't love women. It's the love that counts, not gender, age or race.

:anger:

Oh you don't believe how incredibly frustrated I can get over this. I think I might burst into flames any time soon now.

I can't believe that you honestly see it as a defect, as a mistake that's made somewhere along the lines, that it's completely unnatural. Do you believe that straight people are better than homosexual ones?

Our instincts tell us nothing. Our instincts tell us to be ourselves, whether that's straight, bisexual or gay. The entire society has concentrated on straight people (which isn't exactly what I wanted to say but I can't find the right words), and because of that, straightness is seen as the norm, as how it should be. But there is no 'should be'. All that people should be is themselves, and they shouldn't mould themselves into who their surroundings wants them to be. Anyway, people often suppress any feelings of homosexuality just because the society thinks it's 'not normal', and even says it's a 'genetic mutation'.

There is such a serious lack of respect and love in this world, sometimes I wish I'd never been born on this planet.

Ok let's slow this down a bit...

I know this a highly controverse topic...
and just calls for trouble... but please, slow down, no one should be forced to defend his believes here!

Though it's ok to give impulses into different thinking directions...

A lot of prejudices are based on ignorance and misinformation, let's inform not judge, please...

thank you!

I agree with everything Emz said. Over here, I think it is legal - well, I know that gay couples have married and adopted here, whether its legal or not, and good for them. I knew a lesbian couple once who had a daughter and they were the most lovely family ever. All smiles and their daughter (who was 9 at the time) had no problem with it, saw it as normal, and loved the fact that she had two mothers. Of course, there were men in her life, with her uncles and grandfathers. ome may see it as "bad" that they have no male/female bring up, which is stupid. How do single mothers/fathers cope then?

I also agree when you say about adoption, that the child is wanted, so brought up lovingly.

Well, thats all i ahve to say so far i guess...

Well, I suppose I'd better state my opinion, though it is mixed in some cases. I don't believe in gay marriage because it is totally blocking out the tradition of marriage. I don't have a problem with gay people, but then i'm not the first to admit that it's not natural.

As for gay adoption, no I don't believe in that either. I think a child should be brought up with a mum and a dad. Even if the gay couple could give them the love they needed, they would grow up in a world where they're wondering why they have two mummy's or two daddy's and why their friends have a mum and a dad. Plus, with the predjudice going on in the world, I don't think a child should be rought up in that...nor should they be growing up thinking that they should be gay when they're older. I'm not saying all this WOULD happen but I've read cases where it has happened and I don't think it's right for a child to be dragged into it.

Like i said, i don't have a problem with them, but i still don't think it's right for them to marry and adopt.

Concerning adoption, I believe if they are right to adopt or not depends on the case, just as it hapens with straight couples. It is true that maybe the kid will be confused, or maybe even discriminated by his equals because of his different situation, but if we all begun seeing this as something normal, then this wouldn't have to happen.

Also I agree what you're saying, that if a gay couple decides to adopt a child it'll be for true love and want of it, not because of a mistake. And I think gay couples can give as much love to a child as any other couple.

I was discussing this with some friends a while ago, and one of them argued that the child wouldn't have a figure of the same sex (in some cases) to look up to, but most of times, whether it's by a friend of the couple, a brother, sister, or whatever, they have such figure.

I don't believe it is not normal, nor that homosexual people should mould themselves to fit our profile of 'normal'. Of course it's not the average, or common thing, but then again, how good is it to be average?? Isn't everyone always telling you to be yourself, to be unique??

I'm leaning more towards allowing homosexuals to get married, though there are some good points brought up by some of those against it.

Marriage is an union between man and woman? I always thought that it was all about love. For homosexuals, I think they take marriage more seriously than some hetrosexuals because of the implications society has put upon them.

I don't know much about the Church because I'm not a Christian. Neither am I a religious person at all, so I'm not going to touch on them...

This line bugs me too. Humans are made to reproduce? Hehe @ baby-robots!
I stand by my original view that marriage is about love, and that humans have feelings. I think it's nuts to say that humans live to reproduce. If so, what are we studying, working and doing all our daily chores and routines for? We should just go out and fuck one another senseless to make babies now, shouldn't we?

(I'm not sure if vulgarity is really allowed here, so sorry in advance but it brings across the point better?)

I love this! Sums up society perfectly!

Normality is defined by man (and woman), so why can't it be changed?

Regarding normality, I go by what Flower said :)

Homosexuality, in my eyes, is not a disease, neither is it abnormal. No external factor causes one to turn into a homosexual (to be discussed further below), and I wouldn't classify heart defects and cerebral palsy in the same category as homosexuality, nor define them as abnormal neither.

The occurence of these can't be prevented/helped because they simply are there. I have a lot to say regarding this point but I just can't put them down in words...

Maybe it's because I have a strong belief in the opposite view that makes it difficult for me to see your point.

I believe that homosexuality is in you, and not what you become from influences. There are lots of homosexuals with hetrosexual parents, so why is that so? Genres is my guess.

If you are influenced and 'turns into a homosexual', you really are not one. Liking/loving someone is a basic instinct and not something you can change easily.

I think that as long as the parents work out a way to tell the child, it would be fine. There're too many children around the world with too little love given to them, and I think that these couples would be able to give it to them, so why not? Share the love!

I've thought of adoption when I am older, and not give birth to my own children because I see no point in producing off-springs when there are many unhappy children in the world with nobody to care for them. Erm, I'm digressing too much. :P


In my opinion, to get a little political, George Bush is not a great leader. I don't like the way he dealt with Iraq, Afghanistan and such at all. There're other more sensible ways for those! This information of him wanting to change the consitution (again!) only serves to annoy me, especially with such a condition!

Can I move in with you and marry you and we'll adopt and have lots of babies? (Haha, just kidding for all)

Some people can't even accept the love of friendship between two men, but they're fine with that between women. It led to so many distant (platonic)relationships between men! I guess I love the lads because of this...


Regarding adoption, I still think that telling the child while he/she is growing up would be perfectly fine. I love to think that things work out and the child grows up with little prejudices unlike the majority of society :)

Everything would work out in the end.

Heh, this is like the second time I'm agreeing with Flower.

This is a very touchy topic. But it is good to debate...a good mental exercise! ^_^

For background:

I was raised Roman Catholic - went to Catholic schools and everything. My parents are very much involved in my church back home.

Also - I consider myself a scientist (albeit one who is just starting out). So I tend to look at things from a biological standpoint. Three years of predominantly science courses in school will do that to anyone!!! ^_^

I don't attend church while at school - truthfully it isn't all that important to me at this point in my life. This is a point of much contention between my parents and I. In fact, while I respect the traditions and the basic calling to be kind and generous, of the Catholic Church - much of the rules bother me. I guess I've grown into my own person and don't need to do exactly what my parents are doing to be satisfied. I think that is a good thing. For example, I am in favour of some research techniques that my father finds appaling (I take the Utilitarian point of view on most things). I agree to disagree with him (but he is still trying to convert me to his POV...which is REALLY annoying).

Anyway..it was funny that on my study break from studying reproduction of all things, I would come across this topic.

Just to clarify - I am against any and all forms of prejudice. I think that any laws passed in the spirit of prejudice force society to revert back to times of even less equality amongst individuals.

I wouldn't personally define homosexuality as a defect. True - there might be a hormonal imbalance (of course, the 'cause' of homosexuality is under scrutiny), but it's not as if the person is incapable of functioning in a normal, physiologically healthy way. And in truth - just because something is 'different' doesn't mean it is bad - many mutations arise in nature to compensate for some other debilitating mutation (this is just an example...not referring to homosexuality here).

And homosexual-like behaviour does occur in nature. This is illustrated to a great degree amongst farm animals - especially cattle. Cows in estrus stand to be mounted by other cows and will themselves mount other cows. This is a handy tool for the technician performing artificial insemination. So homosexuality does occur in nature. I don't think it is a choice.

As for the environment/heredity debate - that's a tough one that no one really knows the answer to. I grew up with a mom and a dad...but as I got older and saw the world outside of their house, I was able to make my own decisions (well...with my dad dragging his heels a bit). My point is that just because I was raised in that situation does not mean that I necessarily take it to be the 'most normal' or 'best' way to live.

I understand the Catholic Church's position - but I don't agree with it. I think that love is what matters. I don't believe that marriage is strictly for the production of offspring - if I want to get married but not have any kids - that is my decision. It is actually ironic that the central themes of 'love one another' and 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' are (IMO) ignored in this case. Do we not all want acceptance without restrictions - to be loved for who we are? Do we not all want equality? IMO, if what you want to do does not injure, hurt or maim anyone (including yourself) - then go for it. Of course, you could argue that the marriage of two gay people might 'injure' their parents - but that is where I take the Utilitarian standpoint and weigh the consequenes and the benefits of such a decision, and seek the decision that brings about the 'greatest happiness'. If your argument is that a child adopted by a gay couple will be 'injured' - then that is a blanket statement without any real background. It is true that any couple in the world (hetero- or homo- sexual) can harm a child. A person's sexual orientation does not dictate their morality - and growing up in a 'different' environment from 'everyone else' does not necessarily damage the child.

I do not think that allowing gay marriage will unravel society's moral consciousness...but I do think that prejudice and ignorance do.

I live in Ontario - where gay marriage is now legal. It is also legal to go topless outside and marijuana has been 'decriminilized' (last I looked). It's an interesting place to live for sure. ;-)

All of this is just my opinion - it is not meant to offend...it is just in the spirit of expansion of knowledge. Geez..I sound like my debate prof. :eek:

Okay..two hours before my repro exam...back to work!!!!

I look at this subject from an "in the other person's shoes" perspective. Men and women don't choose to be homosexual, the same way heterosexuals don't choose to love the opposite sex. Sure, you can choose to date the opposite sex to please others though being untrue to yourself, but you cannot choose what sex your true feelings are for. Imagine this: you, growing up, realize you are attracted to the same sex, whether you want (choose) to or not. What would you do?

Someone mentioned tradition, man and woman marriage. Just curious-- anyone ever read the short story "The Lottery"? Tradition can be awfully influential and dangerous.

As far as the "need opposite sex figure" agrument against adoption, I've grown up in a family of girls; father disappeared. I definitely struggle with this. However, this is because I knew what it was like to have a father, in the case of adoption, they most likely won't. They won't know what it could be like-- although I'm sure they'll see their friend's fathers-- but with the love of their parents, no harm done. In a way I think the children of homosexual relationships benefit, for they can grow up understanding and escape the prejudices of modern society.

So much can be said on the topic, which I actually see as two topics, now. Gay marriage, and gay adoption.

On gay marriage, I'd like to know just who decides for all of man kind what is normal, and what is 'mutated' think back to ancient times, men were openly sexual with other men...and not just men, boys. It was revered in fact. I'm certainly not saying I believe in that, in fact I don't. My point is simply that somewhere along the way of time, the lines of sexuality became so damn black and white. Man and woman. Period. no questions asked. Why on earth should 'law' specify who can love and who cannot. By saying gays can't marry, it is saying gay love is wrong. With the horrifying corruption of man kind as it is, there is very little pure love left, love is love. Love between a man and a woman, or a child and a parent, or best friends, men and men, women and women. Love is Love regardless of the context with which it is used.

One of my closesest friends is a gay man. When I look at him, I do not see "gay man" I see my friend Paul, who is magnetic, brilliant, sexy,fun and witty. And always first and foremost true to himself. He loves unconditionally, and to put boundaries on his love or anyones is playing God. The Bible has been writen and re-written so often that the old argument of it stating gays are wrong just doesn't hold anymore. There are even speculations now that there are several references that were at one time in the Bible to gay men that were removed through time. If anyone questions this. Go to the History Channels' web page. They have a huge section on the Bible....sex and the bible, gays and the bible, and origions of the bible. Its truly astounding, and educational. I believe everyone would enjoy it.

As for adoption. I can understand where it would be difficult at times on a child to have same sex parents. But its really just a vicious circle. If human beings were more tollerant, and did not plant the idea of gay marriage or adoption being wrong...no child would question the love given to them. I too know a lesbian couple that adopted a son, and that family is the most beautiful and happy that I know.

Look at the rate of divorce with in the heterosexual community...1 in 2. That is half of all marriages fail. Now, I ask...with that kind of record...how can it be seen as the only 'sanctified form of marriage.'

And God knows, no one should invest too much faith in Geroge Bush. As an American, I can say the man is a complete jackass moron. He can't even articulate a damn sentence and he is running our country. If he continues...he'll run it straight into the ground. WHY IS THIS MAN PRESIDENT????!!!! Hey, I know...let's sentence HIM to death :lmao:

Thank you!

I think this is a very difficult topic to discuss online.

Reason being, when you're on the internet, you must be politically correct or risk being condemned by the greater population. (Think: awful fan fictions still get people saying, "Yay! Post more!" because if people were to say otherwise, such as "This really isn't very good. You should consider some serious revisions" they would be condemned by other members as being "insensitive") That's why I'm treading some pretty high water right now.

I was not referring to homosexuality as a disease such as cerebral palsy or others. I was simply using that as an example of something that people can be born with that isn't normal for people to be born with.

Maybe I used normal in the incorrect context according to you, but I can be sure that I was not confusing it with the word average.

It seems to be pretty popular to bash Bush now, too. I'll have to be the dissenter there, too. Boy am I glad I'm here. Otherwise, where would the debate be?

I used mutated in quotes for a reason. It means that I do not believe that it is overly wrong or disgusting or anything that mutated usually means. I simply mean a change in the genetic code.

Well, they could just not marry at all.

This isn't an attack on you, Lessy, but just a comment for all of the people that share your view.

Bush cannot make a law without the approval of the House and the Senate. So why is no one complaining about them?

Yes, but there are certain rights that married couples have that are pretty important, and gay couples probably want them too.

Like I mentioned before: inheritance, medical coverage plans and things like that have different rules for married couples than for not married ones.


I'm not really in position to diss Bush or support him, since I'm not aware of all his actions as President. All I really know of is his actions towards Irak and the 9/11 incident - which I didn't agree at all with.

I think the rights aren't as important as the 'permanent binding of love for each other' thing that supposedly goes along with marriage.

It's true, and actually this thread worries me. But what you do have to consider and I say that without any attack is that we do have homosexual and bi-sexual members, guys and girls, and for them this is not just an interesting topic to discuss - but life and by comments like "not normal" etc. you hurt them...

I don't say he's a jackass for making laws... I say this is SO not a topic to fight for his re-election!
He makes homosexuals pay for his stupidity that brought him in the situation that he looses pupularity and a minority shall pay for it... that is just plain unfair and pathetic!

Indeed - but from a european point of view we have no other choicve seriously all he has done was against our will or bad for us... and you by the way so, well I think as long as you bash him for a reason that's fine.

And Why not? I mean we are all humans therefore deserver all the same rights it's as simple as that, in my eyes.

Sorry, I really need to add my two cents here. Unfortunately this is not going to be a very long entry, because I am in a hurry, but I am coming back with more.

For now, let me ask all of you to stop for a while and analyze the term:

NORMALITY.

And then ask yourselves the following questions:

• What is normal?
  
  
• Who defines what is normal and what is not referred to which "norme"?
  
  
• Are you normal?

I agree with Laila on the fact that there are people I know (online and in my everyday life) who are homosexual or bisexual, and never, neither once in the whole time I've known them the fact that their sexuality is different from mine has hit me once. The thought that they could be "not normal" has ever crossed my mind.

Or that their sexual choices could be "subject of discussion". Simply because they are the same way I am: people living their lives, their feelings and emotions.
I'd be pretty annoyed if somebody contested me the fact I am attracted by men and consider it "not normal".
Because if you stop a while and reflect on it, if you look at it the other way round, the "weird" to their eyes could be you.

I'll stop it here by now, but I'll be back soon.

:bloom:

And yes, please: let's keep this thread "politically correct". Not for fear of being bashed by the others.
No.
Let's keep it clean in the name of RESPECT.

Thank you very much.

I'm not saying, "Ooh, you're gay. Burn in hell!" I'm saying, "Okay, that's how you feel, but I disagree." This does not mean that I have no moral standards or I'm an insensitive [fill in your desired 4-5 letter word here]. I'm sad that they're getting beaten and killed because of their sexual orientation. I just don't support them being married.

What is normal? Normality is an ultimate standard that we set and then try to work towards or away from.

Look, maybe normal was a wrong word to use, but it's how I feel. Go ahead and call me not normal. Be my guest. But I am really getting sick of being educated on what the word normal means.

There is no need to get all defensive...
We don't attack you, and in no case personally...

Do you know homosexuals personally?

Just a question...

Well. What is marriage about? Love, right? So it should not be a matter of gender or anything like that, just the fact that 2 people love each other ad want to make it legal, to be like everyone else who is in love. So denying this to homosexual couples is denying them of a right that they should have had a long time ago.

My two cents...

Of course not, but if love for each other isn't a good enough reason to allow gay couples to marry, there's also that...

:yes:
I agree.

A nice discussion doesn't have to involve rude critisizing (sp??) to other's opinions, and I apologize if I did that - it was never my intention.

You know, girl? The solution to all debating lies exactly in that pronoun: WE.
When somebody opposes it to THE OTHER(S).
Normality is a standard, but not ultimate, to my humble belief, because it varies from individual to individual.

I might find "normal" eating meat, whereas a vegetarian finds "normal" not eating meat. It always depends under which light you analyse the situation.

And, we are not bashing you.
Everyone has the right to express their own opinion on this forum.
We are simply "disputing" the content of your statements, because they "could" sound offending to people you mispresented in your previous posts.

ReZpect!

:bloom:

Sorry, I realize how that could be misinterpreted. I'll do my best to rephrase it.

It's an ultimate standard that one sets for oneself and then tries to work toward or away from.

And in response to Laila's question, yes, I know several gay and bi people. I have two pretty good female friends. One is bi and the other, well I'm not really sure which one she is, but I don't really think it's any of my business.

There's also a gay guy in my homeroom, but he's so afraid of his parents finding out that I've come to dislike him a lot. In the past he's used girls to play his "girlfriends" back when he was playing straight. And I think it would be awful to go out with a guy only later to find out that he was really gay and using you so his parents wouldn't find out about it. ugh.

Yes that's true, that is mean and coward behaviour!
(Going out with girls for cover without telling them so...)
But... you know wouldn't it be nice if homosexuality was so accepted that it wasn't necessary?
And if you know them, and like them? *lol* if not just imagine a close friend would because my example doesn't work if you dislike the person...
But if it is someone you would really like and trust, don't you think they would deserve the happiness of love and as anyone else also the final binding?

I dunno... that'd how I see it, and frankly I have problems to look through your eyes at the problem - but i'll keep trying :)

Well, I also know a gay guy. He is one of my best friends, actually and he tells people (that he knos he can trust) the fact that he is gay. His mom knows but his dad doesn't. The problem is that people are very close minded, and that he is afraid of letting most of the people know. I don't know, this country is very conservative, and very religious, so it's not the easiest thing to do.

You know...I do want to say, I admire the fact that in the face of adversity from others, you stand by your opinions. That is exactly the point of this forum. Allthough we may not all always agree with one another, and hopefully in light of that respect other's opinions, it remains to be a place to be heard not judged.

My favorite quote that I said to Laila...opinions are like ass holes...everyone's got one, and no two are alike!!! :lmao: so deliciously vulgar.

anyway...just wanted to reiterate be nice, have respect and listen to others' its a wonderful way to learn and open your mind....

Sorry if I sound really gross, but I've read several places that men really need to get rid of excess semen because they are constantly producing new sperm and there's no place for the old sperm to go.

but i do understand the point you're making.

*lol* That is actually a rumour spread by men who like either gain more sex or justification of masturbation... our bio teacher told us.
It normally doesn't happen and if then guys have a wet dream to get rid of it...

Heh! Can't believe I missed this thread! Anyway, I haven't read through the whole thing yet. I just wanted to post what I posted in my LiveJournal. It includes everything that I believe and all... so, yeah. Keep in mind that I was pretty emotional when I wrote this. :P

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Article I'm Responding To

I have a question for Bush. What the fuck is marriage supposed to be if not the legal joining of two people who love each other?

I don't understand this. Even if one thinks beyond the boundaries of love to the purely legal sense of "marriage," why does it matter whether it's two men, two women, or a man and woman who are getting the rights associated with marriage? What difference does it make? Why is marriage just 'the union of a man and woman' - why is that so much more socially acceptable? What principle, what moral can you be defending by this type of discrimination?

Would it make it better if I never had sex? Is that what you object to? Would it make it better if I got married in drag? Is it the way I look?

People get married all the time not because they love each other but because they get economic and social priveleges for doing so. If that's not defacing the idea of marriage, then why is gay marriage? Why are you taking away what should be a basic civil right simply because of who I love?

I've been thinking about where, when and how I want to get married since I was about nine. I never considered the gender of the person I'd be marrying. I only thought of the love we would share, and how we would represent that by our legal union. If you can legally look past race and religion in a marriage, why can't you look past gender? Why can't you look past age? These aren't things that can be changed about someone, so why are they the things that define what rights we are given?

I feel kind of stupid for crying over this, but... I guess not very many people realize how much getting married would mean to me.

...maybe by the time I'm ready to get married, gay marriage will be normal. Maybe.

...yeah. right.

***

Aww hunni I know how you feel. I'm not a lesbian wanting to get married if thats what your thinking but my best friend Dave is very upset about all this and during our little crying sessions this topic comes up.

I just felt like saying my bit on gay marriage....

Ok, to me, marriage is meant to be about love, and the union of two PEOPLE who love each other. Homosexual marriages should not be outlawed, because to me, that's basically outlawing love. to me, Homosexuality is not wrong, its not freakish, its not unacceptable, it just is, like heterosexuality just is. I feel absolutely disgraced and disgusted when i see people saying things like "God hates fags." I feel absolutely sick when I hear about people being that narrow minded.

I can't believe that homosexuality is illigal in 20 states in America (not to mention other countries). Has anyone heard of Matthew Shephard? He was 21 i think when he was brutally murdered by two thugs and left to hang on a barbed wire fence, simply because he was gay.

Personally, I just can't understand this type of prejudice. If you're gay, go you. If you're straight, go you. If you don't like people being gay, keep it to yorself. If you dont like people being straight. KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. peoples prejudices are their own problem. I say, forget whether people are gay, straight, bisexual, black, white, brown, yellow, christian, buddhist, islamic, WHATEVER, and love them all the same.

but that's just me....

Firstly, I do respect other people's opinions and I'm not attacking anyone personally here. I hope I don't offend anyone with my opinion but sometimes it's unavoidable.

I completely and utterly agree with Riko. That's nearly exactly what I wanted to say.

I had a debate about homosexuality with my mother only this morning so I'm fairly riled up about this topic.

I despise the phrase 'Homosexuality is unnatural.' I - hate - it. I don't understand how anyone can say that. What is your basis for this? Genetics? The bible? 'Homosexuality' is nothing but a label which gives people another excuse to divide themselves from others. Our race has learnt nothing over time and it's sickening. When will we learn that 'Human being' is the only label that should exist? When will the world wake up and see that no matter what we are born to look like, to feel, to think we are all still the same.

If people discriminate in such ways against homosexuality then what's stopping them from feeling the same way about the opposite sex? Different religions? People with different coloured hair!? Homosexuality is called unnatural because those people aren't homosexual themselves. Thus, it's only natural that they oppose anyone else who isn't exactly like them.

I find opposition to homosexuality hypocritical and down right ignorant. Think of a person as a person, not as a definition.

- Jessity B)

Actually I remember someone saying that a lot of homophobics are homosexuals, but they're scared of being that way.

Yeah, I heard that too now that you mention it. I would imagine that that fear is due to the discrimination.

There's so much social indoctrination about homosexuality being unnatural or irregular that it's become natural for people to be afraid.

- Jessity B)

my mum has a million gay friends, and they're all called luke. Im serious, my mum knows 8 gay guys called luke, four of them are couples.

sorry. random.

Im a little fired up at the moment because i was just watching the "Sodomobile" episode of the aweful truth. Picketers with "god laughs when fags die".....it all just makes me feel sick and ashamed.