Where would you put the rivalry compared to past ones?Has it yet reached a stage where we can place it,or like most things will it be truly valued when it's over?

Myself I tend to think that if they took each others favourite slam in some dramatic fashion,it would elevate the rivalry into maybe one of the greatest of all time.

We've discussed rivalries before,but I lifted this off the ATP website hoping to promote some opinions.

FEDERER vs NADAL
The Rivalry
Updated April 27, 2008
Tennis' 1-2 Punch: Roger Federer vs Rafael Nadal
ATP World No.1 Roger Federer and No. 2 Rafael Nadal went head-to-head for the 15th time in the final of 2008 Masters Series Monte-Carlo - their third consecutive meeting in the Monaco title match.

Nadal's 7-5, 7-5 victory extended his winning record over Federer on clay to 7-1 and 9-6 in meetings on all surfaces. Nadal also avoided losing to Federer for a third consecutive time for the first time in his career following defeats to the Swiss last year at the Tennis Masters Cup and Wimbledon.

Nadal vs Federer Head2Head

Here is a history of the duo’s 15 career meetings, beginning with their first match at Miami in March 2004.


2004 NASDAQ-100 Open, Miami, 3rd RD. Nadal d. Federer 63 63
Federer came into the ATP Masters Series event on a roll, having won the Australian Open final over Marat Safin in February and the Pacific Life Open (also a Masters Series event) in Indian Wells over Tim Henman just before coming to Miami. He had lost only once in 2004 prior to this match (in the quarterfinals of Rotterdam to Henman). Nadal, the youngest man in the tournament at 17, was just starting to emerge as a force on the ATP circuit and hadn’t yet won a title. He breezed by Federer in only 69 minutes for the best win of his career at that point. The Spaniard said after the match that it was probably the best he had ever served.


2005 NASDAQ-1OO Open, Miami, F. Federer d. Nadal 26 67(4) 76(5) 63 61
Federer was primed for revenge. Again he came into the Miami event with only one loss for the year (to Safin in the semifinals of the Australian Open) and fresh off a title in Indian Wells (d. Hewitt). Nadal was a year older and wiser, already having won three ATP titles. The balls were flying at Federer from Nadal’s exploding topspin groundstrokes, and the Spaniard was running down every ball in sight. Before he knew it, Federer was down 5-3 in the third set tie-break, two points from defeat. But he rallied back, and leveled the head-to-head series at 1-1


2005 Roland Garros, Paris, SF. Nadal d. Federer 63 46 64 63
Theirs was the most eagerly awaited match of the tournament. Federer was already No. 1 in the world, and Nadal was fourth, behind No. 2 Marat Safin and No. 3 Andy Roddick. Nadal came to Roland Garros on the heels of clay-court titles at the ATP Masters Series events at Monte-Carlo in April (d. Coria) and at Rome in May (d. Coria again). Federer, meanwhile, was fresh off of his second straight clay-court crown at Masters Series Hamburg in May (d. Gasquet). Federer evened the score by winning the second set, but after that his form fell, while Nadal kept the pressure on, ousting Federer in four sets on the way to winning the Roland Garros title on debut.

2006 Dubai Tennis Championships, Dubai, F. Nadal d. Federer 26 64 64
Federer came into the pair’s first encounter of the 2006 season undefeated, having won the title at Doha (d. Monfils) and the Australian Open (d. Baghdatis). Nadal was just getting his groove back after suffering an ankle injury at the Madrid Masters Series event in October. Dubai was only Nadal’s second tournament since suffering the injury. He opened the year with a semifinal showing at Marseille in February (l. to Clement). This was the first match between Federer and Nadal with the Spanish superstar holding the INDESIT ATP Ranking of No. 2. Nadal won the encounter despite winning less points: 71 to 78. They each broke serve three times, but Nadal won the points that mattered. The win represented his 10th straight victory in finals. Nadal’s victory also broke Federer’s Open Era record of 56 straight match wins on hard courts.

2006 Masters Series Monte-Carlo, F. Nadal d. Federer 62 67(2) 63 76(5)
Between the Dubai match and this one in April, Federer went undefeated, winning Masters Series events for the third year in a row at Indian Wells (d. Blake) and the second year in a row at Miami (d. Ljubicic). Nadal, meanwhile, reached the semifinals of Indian Wells (l. to Blake) and fell in the second round at Miami (to Moya). But Nadal regained his footing at Monte-Carlo. He took the exciting match in 3 hours and 49 minutes and overcome a 0-3 deficit in the final tie-break.

2006 Masters Series Rome, F. Nadal d. Federer 67(0) 76(5) 64 26 76(5)
In May, only three weeks after their Monte-Carlo match, Federer and Nadal were at it again. Federer rested in the time in between the two tournaments, while Nadal went to Barcelona and won the title (d. Robredo). This match was the best between the two warriors yet, lasting five hours and five minutes. Federer forced the action, successfully approaching the net again and again. The Swiss tennis genius won more points than Nadal, just like in Dubai, 179 to 174. But once more Nadal won the big points. Federer had two match points with Nadal serving at 5-6, 15-40 in the final set. But he missed forehands on both opportunities. With the victory, Nadal tied Guillermo Vilas’ Open Era record of 53 straight match wins on clay. He also lifted his career record in finals to 16-2, the best winning percentage in Open Era history. Even after the defeat, Federer had an incredible 2006 record of 39-3, with all three losses at the hands of Nadal.

2006 Roland Garros, F. Nadal d. Federer 16 61 64 76(4)
The stakes had never been higher in a Federer-Nadal showdown than when the top two players in the INDESIT ATP Rankings went head-to-head in the Roland Garros final. Playing in his first Roland Garros title match, Federer was attempting to become the first player since Rod Laver in 1969 to win four straight Grand Slam events, and just the third player in history to achieve the feat. Nadal was looking to become the youngest player to defend the Roland Garros title since Bjorn Borg in 1974-75. The Spaniard also was trying to improve his perfect record at Roland Garros to 14-0, his clay court winning streak to 60 matches and to notch his 100th career clay court win.

Federer broke Nadal twice in the first set to race to a 5-0 lead. But then Nadal began to dominate the match with his crushing forehand and Federer struggled with many unforced backhand errors. Nadal did not drop serve again until he tried to close out the match at 5-4 in the fourth set. But he clinched the match soon after in the tie-break. Nadal won his 14th consecutive final (second only in the Open Era to Federer's mark of 24 straight finals won).



2006 Wimbledon, F. Federer d. Nadal 60 76(5) 67(2) 63

The pressure was on Federer, as the top seed and three-time defending champion was playing in his favorite surface, riding a 47-match grass court winning streak and facing Nadal in a surface that the Spaniard had not managed to produce good results prior to this year's Wimbledon.

Federer started the match in hot form, breaking Nadal in the second, fourth and sixth games to take the set 6-0. The Spaniard would break Federer in the first game of the second set and serve at 5-4 but fail to close it out. Federer won the second set in a tie-break 7-5 but ended up losing the third set also in a tie-break (7-2). In the fourth set Federer took early control, breaking Nadal at 2-1 and 4-1 and eventually winning the Championships when serving at 5-3.

Federer, who captured his 39th career title and eighth Grand Slam crown, became the sixth man to secure four straight Wimbledon titles.

2006 Tennis Masters Cup Shanghai, SF. Federer d. Nadal 64 75

Federer notched his second straight victory over Nadal, ending with a vicious cross-court winner to become the first player to reach four consecutive finals at a circuit-ending championship since Ivan Lendl. He broke Nadal early in the opening set and clinched it with a second break of the Spaniard after 49 minutes. Nadal got out of jail twice on match points in the tenth game from Federer errors, but could not hold off the World No. 1 as Federer wrapped up the win two games later. The Swiss went on to capture his career-best 12th title by defeating James Blake in the final and finished the season with a 92-5 record.

2007 Masters Series Monte-Carlo, F. Nadal d. Federer 64 64

Federer entered Monte-Carlo on the heels of two surprisingly early exits, seeing his career-high 41-match winning streak come to an end with an opening round loss to Guillermo Canas in Indian Wells and losing to the Argentine again in the fourth round at Miami. He regrouped at the year's first clay court ATP Masters Series event to set up a final rematch with two-time defending champion Nadal. But Nadal, who dropped serve just three times in his five matches, proved too much for the top seed in their first meeting of the 2007 season. He broke Federer's serve once in each set and saved all three break points he faced to capture his eighth career ATP Masters Series shield and extend his Open Era record-winning streak on clay to 67 matches.

2007 Masters Series Hamburg, F. Federer d. Nadal 26 62 60

Federer had gone four tournaments without lifting the trophy - the longest title drought of his 172-week reign as ATP World No. 1 - but capped off his week by avenging two years of clay-court torment at the hands of Nadal. He snapped the Spaniard’s 81-match clay winning streak and 16-0 record in clay-court finals, denying Nadal a historic sweep of the clay ATP Masters Series titles as he hoisted the Hamburg trophy for the fourth time.

After a lackluster first set in which he faced break points in his first three services games and lost five consecutive games, Federer changed course and took the attack to his arch rival. He conceded just six points on serve in the second set and seven points on serve in the third set as he hit peak form in his last appearance before Roland Garros.

2007 Roland Garros, F. Nadal d Federer 63 46 63 64

The stakes were higher than ever when Federer and Nadal clashed in the 2007 Roland Garros final. For the second consecutive year Federer was attempting to become just the sixth man in history to win all four Grand Slam titles and to be just the third man to hold all four majors at the same time. Nadal was looking to join Bjorn Borg as the only player to win three consecutive Roland Garros crowns.

Earlier in the clay swing Nadal had beaten Federer in the Masters Series Monte-Carlo final but Federer avenged that defeat with his first clay court victory over Nadal in the Masters Series Hamburg final.

Federer took the fight to Nadal early, earning 10 break point chances over three consecutive Nadal service games in the first set. But the tough Spaniard refused to buckle and scrapped to win the first set. Although Federer rebounded to win the second set, Nadal's ability to fight off 16 of 17 break point opportunities in the match was the telling factor.

Federer returned more aggressively - particularly on the backhand - to try to stop Nadal from controlling points, but, as in past meetings, the Spaniard's high kicking left-handed forehands into his backhand were too much for Federer to handle.

2007 Wimbledon, F. Federer d Nadal 76(7) 46 76(3) 26 62

After a draining run to the Wimbledon final for the second consecutive year, Rafael Nadal's mental and physical toughness was on show as he produced the best grass court performance of his career against four-time defending champion Federer. Playing for the seventh consecutive day after rain wreaked havoc with the tournament, Nadal pushed the mighty Federer to five sets for the first time in his 34-match winning streak at the All England Club.

Federer, who had never lost a match at Wimbledon after winning the first set, claimed the crucial first set tie-break despite Nadal's gallant effort to save three consecutive set points at 3/6 in the 'breaker.

An attacking Federer made many forays to the net but Nadal had his blistering passes dialed in, protected his serve and volleyed with confidence. The Spaniard saved a break point in the first game of the third set and then didn't face another break point until Federer claimed the decisive break in the sixth game of the fifth set.

Having seen Nadal save 16 of 17 break points against him to win Roland Garros, Federer twice rallied from 15/40 in the fifth set to avoid going down an early break.

Federer, who clubbed 65 winners - including 24 aces and many cross court backhand winners - equaled Bjorn Borg's record of five consecutive Wimbledon titles. Nadal was attempting to become the first player since Borg in 1980 to win Roland Garros and Wimbledon in the same year.



2007 Tennis Masters Cup SF. Federer d. Nadal 64 61

Federer claimed the most lopsided win in his storied rivalry with Nadal to race into the Tennis Masters Cup final in Shanghai. After holding his nerve in a tense first set, Federer blew open the match by winning 13 consecutive points at the start of the second set before closing out a 6-4, 6-1 victory.

Federer produced one of the best serving performances of his career, putting 81 percent of first serves into play and, in the first set, firing four consecutive aces to get out of a 0-30 hole.

The ATP World No. 1 hit with conviction the topspin backhand that has so often let him down against Nadal. He was confident on return, opting for a more aggressive topspin backhand rather than his slice. And he found the time he needed to dance around his backhand and unleash the full force of his mighty forehand.

After his early challenge, Nadal fell well short of his best form. His groundstrokes lacked their normal penetration and he made a number of unforced errors.

Yet Nadal did have a number of chances on the Federer serve in the first set and only gave up his first break chances when he dropped serve to lose the irst set 6-4. Federer then embarked on his 13-point sweep at the beginning of the second set to take a 3-0 lead. During that run he made seven of eight first serves and broke Nadal to love.



2008 Masters Series Monte-Carlo F. Nadal d. Federer 75 75

As always seems the case, the stakes were high when Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer met in the 2008 Masters Series Monte-Carlo final. Nadal was looking to become the first player in the Open Era - and the first in almost 100 years - to win four consecutive titles in Monaco. Coming off his seventh career clay title one week earlier in Estoril, Federer was desperate not to fall to Nadal for a third consecutive year in the Monte-Carlo final.

The ATP World No. 1 broke Nadal in the first games of the first and second sets, even racing to a 4-0 lead in the second when Nadal eked out just five points during that stretch. But Federer's inability to hold serve - he was broken six times and saved just one of seven break points - was his undoing, as Nadal embarked on a five-game winning streak of his own before closing out the match 7-5, 7-5.

Since winning his first Monte-Carlo title in 2005, Nadal had won 98 of 99 clay-court matches through his title title run in Monaco in 2008. The victory marked the 21-year-old's 10th ATP Masters Series title and his 24th title overall. Nadal also snapped a nine-month title drought dating back to Stuttgart in 2007.

It's a strange rivalry as one has clearly the upper hand on clay while the other on the other surfaces. What I like about Nadal is the challenge he represents on clay for Federer. Though it is 7-1 Nadal, I feel, there is not that much between those 2 on clay as last week end proved again. I however do not see much of a rivalry on the other surfaces.

I don't know if this rivalry is legendary or not because as Tenez points out the two are just so good on their fav surfaces...its not the kind of rivalry like say Mac and Jimmy...because the two were good on the same surfaces...but either way their rivalry is the most awaited one these days..and we expect them to meet in the finals of every tournament they enter ...but legendary? This makes me ask the question of what is legendary in the world of rivalry?

:coffee: .......Navratilova vrs Chris Evert ... = Legendary rivalry ?!

About some 80 encounters ... 60 of them I think in finals it was...... :unsure:

I dont think its much of a 'rivalry' because its mainly about clay, and Federer doesnt need to turn around the 7-1 there but just to win a French Open in his quest to become the GOAT.Nadals task is to stop him doing that and has succeeded so far .The guy is after all one of the best ever on clay only losing once in three years , yet Federer is getting closer to him.

On grass Federer won both close matches but hard to call it a 'rivalry' .

On the other surfaces Federer might have lost a couple of times but now clearly has the upper hand.

But I find the battle on clay by far the most interesting .

Its strange how everyone talks about Borg/McEnroe as a great rivalry but
did they ever play on clay?

Do you know this is what makes me think it isn't like the rivalries of the past.
Sampras-Agassi Both could beat each other on hardcourts,only on grass was it more predictable.

Edberg-Becker Another one which had two similar styles,with one graceful and the other more athletic.Grass and Hard.

If you add Lendl to the list,particulary with Becker.

This is the trouble with Nadal and Federer,the rivalry isn't really going anywhere.I like the Federer-Nalbandian rivalry much more because it has history,and because they are more a match for each other across all surfaces.
If Nalbandian came good on his obvious slam winning talent then I believe we would be discussing this rivalry more,and it would match past greats.

Being picky I know,but it needs a shock win to lift it.

Well, I do think it's getting there, in terms of being a classic rivalry, with Nadal making the last couple Wimbledon finals and Fed making the last couple RG finals, but in all cases so far, the reigning master of the surface has prevailed. Nadal needs to show up more in the other slams, though.

nadal is king of clay and always will be... :cheers:

And your point is :shrug:

fed will never be better on clsy than Rafa :cheers:

Oh I can see that you're very happy about this too.Please have a few more. :cheers:

Thanks! :D
dont get me wrong,fed is btetter player butbon claty Rafa is better... :cheers:

I agree with this list...In terms of being legendary it does not have to be between the no:1 and the no:2 in the world...I think Federer vs Safin would have been even closer considering their ability on diverse surfaces( Alas Safin never stood up to the expectations) and who can forget the AO semi?
And personally i believe a rivalry becomes even more legendary when the opponents don't have respect for each other...which in Rafa' s and Fed's case is not true...

Another issue I have with the Fed / Rafa rivalry is that they rarely play well at the same time. Rafa 's game or talent is aimed at destroying his opponent's skills by playing a game that is not common on the tour. In short sending flying balls that are difficult to control. Nadal has a big advantage there as there is not such difference in the other players game as there is in his. If there was 10 Nadal's out there, more players would have sorted him (them) out by now. As Federer says, it's like another sport almost. When Federer has one of his moment, Nadal gets hammered clay or not clay but when Fed is not as sharp, he falls in Nadal's game and the overall level of the match is downwards.

Federer Safin as Lahlita pointed took tennis to new levels because their games was both based on playing with geometry of the court as well as pace and sheer skills. Nadal does not bother about where his shots land as much as making sure they have the right amount of spin and power.

But having said all that I very enjoy their encounters ....especially on clay. Nothing impresses me more than Federer dominating Nadal on clay, even if its only by patches. Having played on clay myself sand doing what he does versus Nadal is in my view much more impressive than whatever he does on grass as it comes too easily for him (when he is not under too much pressure of course).

i'm sorry, but generally speaking Nadal is a clay court specialist. he can play on all surfaces, but he doesn't really win titles on them. 24 titles, how many clay, like 18 or 19... :rolleyes:

I agree with everything you say Tenez.

It is simply so hard for an aggressive player to win on clay.

Personally (obviously not near Roger/Rafa level) clay completely debilitates me as an attacking player. People who I would normally wipe off a court routinely can beat me. The fact Rog was brought up on clay though helps him a lot in this aspect though - he knows the surface well.

I still think 7-1 is not really true reflection of their clay encounters. Yes Rafa is clearly the better claycourter and king of clay.

BUT Fed has pulled him close on a number of occasions. If he had converted a MP in Rome 2006 Nadal would never have had his record breaking cc streak. Fed worked him harder this MonteCarlo then he has ever done at MC before.

But yes Fed is definitely now in charge of hard courts and has an edge on grass although last Wimby was waaay too close for my liking. :S

Cheers FW.

I d like to pointed out that there is also clay under the sun and clay when it is overcast (probably 30degree C difference on average). And clay while overcast it is Fed 1 Nadal 0). ;)

the term 'clutching at straws' springs to mind here...:lol: ;)

Not really, the height of the bounce greatly affects Nadal 's game.On any surface .

yeah but I'm not sure being overcast had alot to do with Fed winning in Hamburg last year, it was the clay surface used there which suited Fed more than Rafa... :ok:

I'm not certain if this has been mentioned here before ... but from what Pete Sampras says of Raphael, it does goes to show that...more often than not it will take a setback on Rafa's part to gain the upper hand..

This was before his loss to Juan Carlos F. , but it still goes to show that he is seen as a work horse, and it will take something exceptional to derail him on clay specifically...

The Complete article from Sports Illustrated..


...........

Fed fanns have to against Nadal :D

But seriously sometimes that's all that seperates these 2.

Yep - Certainly a big difference for Federer hitting his shots at chest/shoulder level instead of above his head. On a sunny day it's 60degree on court (balls close to bursting limits), overcast should keep temperature within the 20s and allow Fed to hit easier shots and keep fresher, 2 factors very important to his sharpness (he is the one looking for the lines). Those who play on clay can appreciate the difference between those 2 conditions...but though none of us have played Nadal, we can easily imagine the nightmare it is to play him under hot conditions.

Amongst the fact that Rafa was also tired :ok:

It's interesting if both Fed and Nadal DO play Hamburg I wonder who will be favourite.

It is certainly Nadal's worst clay court surface. Will he recover quickly enough? He struggled to the final last year before finally being ousted.

If Fed takes Rome though I don't know if he will play Hamburg.

For the sakes of points I hope he deos. If he wins Rome he will be over 1600 points ahead of Nadal again... :P

yes - Its a good question about Federer playing Hamburg. I am sure he'll try, knowing he has a full week before the French. For him to get the rhythm of clay is very important and I am sure he will try to play it.

Yes nadal was tired. But there are 2 types of fatigues. One for having played a lot in the previous weeks and the one generated on the day by being stretched by a player who hits the lines. Nadal had to do lots of running that day. This is why it is so important that Federer controls that ball so he can dictate instead of being dictated. Nadal was certainly tired in Hamburg last year, but when the opposition, can't control the ball, he has much less running to do and can even dictate the rally whch is much less taxing. Federer's shots suddenly made him run more than he would have if Fed had struggled with controlling Nadal's shots (hot conditions).