Is CCTV and the surveillance culture becoming too pervasive and over intrusive?
The UK has upwards of a million closed circuit television cameras in operation-some suggest closer to two million-the most in Europe.
New parking regulations have come into force in England and Wales which can use CCTV footage to enforce rules and impose fines.
Talking CCTV cameras that tell off people dropping litter or committing anti-social behaviour are to be extended to 20 areas across England. Already used in Middlesbrough where people seen misbehaving can be told to stop via a loudspeaker, controlled by control centre staff.
Is this surveillance good for us? stopping crime and anti-social behaviour, or is the creeping hand of big brother gradually tightening it's grip on our ability to be free to misbehave-ultimately to be human.
My own take on this is that I think we're in danger sleepwalking into something
potentially quite sinister-a ubiquitous all seeing eye, which leaves no public space un-watched.
Maybe i'm being paranoid after all as i heard someone say recently 'If you've nothing to hide, or aren't misbehaving what's the problem?'

whenever i'm in London, it always amazes me how much CCTV there is. it has started to creep into city life here in downtown Toronto. they're putting in our subway system and some of the entertainment/bar/club district has been blanketed with them. i think the emphasis of CCTV or whatever should be public spaces. but with some limitations. i don't need big brother watching me go about my day. i don't care if it prevents crime, find another way. more cops on the street, make a community presence.

yeah, it's useful up to a point, it's hard to deny that, and that's always the problem-it's utility is hard to deny, but if we can't draw a line on it's use, i reckon it'l end up just about everywhere in the public sphere

Good topic, I was talking abot this the other day. :ok:

Initially I supported them because they alledgedly stop crime or help to catch criminals, and my take on them was that whilst i don't like being watched it was for the common good and those who did nothing wrong had nothing to worry about.It isn't workingn like that though. Some problems are

1. often CCTVs don't enable criminals to be identified and criminals take measures to avoid this by wearing plain clothes, hoods etc. And even if you can see them, you still have to work out who they are and find them.

2. kids still committ anti social behaviour near them, often in defiance. Even if the police can see their faces they can't necessarily or prosecute the culprits due to their age. I think kids are just getting used to them and taking the piss with them tbh. I was astonished that in the quiet fishing viallge of Brixham S Devon, where I spent a lot of time, the pubs were quiet but this gang of kids congregate on the main street every night drinkign cider. They swear, shout fight RIGHT under the CCTV. They even threw their empties at it. And then every half hour or so th epolice car comes, and they all run away down the narrow alleys. Then they go back there. Honets, no joke! Put me off the place actually.

3. they only put them in town centres, and whilst that might be a deterent to keep the town looking good for business and tourists etc. the anti social or criminal elements move away form the cameras to town edges - like where I live! :rolleyes: ASB and crime is therefore pushed into housing estates and those of us paying tax for theis CCTVs end up worse off cos we have more crime. There is no graffit in my town centre, but 10 mins away walk where I am there are drunks and druggies in the park and graffiti all over. So in short you don't solve the problem, you simply dump it on someone else.

4. the government CCTV to make money - in cases of minor motoring offences. Round here there is a camera that snaps you if you enter the London bus lane, but as you turn you cannto avoid doing so! Loads of folks have goen to court, they are capaigning to get it removed. There are seed cameras everywhere, folks now where they are so still speed bu tin places where they can't be seen.

One thing that annoyed me is a guy down the raod is 70 and widowed and is very ill. He's been bullied and harrassed by ASBO kids for years, the police even installed CCTv especially but have never made any use of it. They either say they can't be 100% or say they can't fidn the kids etc. even though their names and addresses are known. :rolleyes:

I think by far the city of London is one of the most CCTV-ed places on earth. The increasing use of CCTV(s) in downtown Toronto is intriguing. I always found Toronto as a whole to be one of the most congenial cities in the world. But, I guess the authorities are trying to find the best measures against increasing levels of crime especially in the downtown areas. You could certainly argue there are other alternatives to spending so many man hours trawling through hours of CCTV footage just to spot one soul doing something, and some of your suggestions, vivahate are about right.

I think the issue there is always the trade-offs, as they say, balancing freedoms against something else. I think CCTVs in certain public spaces is appropriate, especially where safety is of a prime. I would include say nuclear facilities, hospitals etc in such areas.
It’s always that intrusive feeling of being watched, that plays at the back one’s mind. NY City is probably not as heavily CCtv-ed like London, but certain things are also different.
The law enforcement agencies in the US are generally well armed, and the right to bear arms is supreme in the US. UK police are not armed or lightly armed. I refer to the regular police not tactical operations groups. So maybe..it does factor in as to why there is a need for more CCTVs if you want more ‘friendly police forces’. And the seemingly British culture of drinking excessively and ASBO demands it. As for bearing arms, it may deter crime but likewise some may argue …the slippery slope effect to more violent crime.

On the other hand, I have read of statements from some high ranking British police officers who do believe that too much CCTV in a society is not the best way to go.

There was a recent program from BBC, about what is called ‘Nanny Cams’ in places like affluent areas of New York City, Manhattan etc. These record the activities of Au pair or Nannies for the parents when they go off to work or elsewhere. And some were up in arms about it because the nanny doesn’t need to know anything about the second smoke alarm being a hidden camera.
And the interesting thing was that some parents used it as a means of recommending the nannies to others. They were like ‘Oh we know she is safe, because we recorded her the whole time’. Apparently in some places the law allows the parent to gives the child’s consent to record anything without the other party agreeing to it. They even made a funny comment that now; it seems your life is recorded from the cradle to the grave. Now that gets creepy, thinking about what it could be used for. Then again, some Nannies these days….you be the judge.

I believe that in the UK, your image is recorded every 20 minutes when you're in a town centre or something like that?

The last time I stayed in London, I even noticed a CCTV outside the lift in the hotel - the last time I noticed that I was staying in Brunei where the church police used to monitor the activities of guests and make sure that unmarried couples didn't engage in nefarious activities...

:blink:

Pity that the CCTV in the training centre I was as at didn't see the c*nt who nicked my laptop and documents case!

Yeah this is what annoys me. I think th emotives behind CCTV are nto to protect the public but more selctive for the CCTv user.owner.

I was in Tescos a couple of years back shopping. I was only there for about 20 mins and when I arrived at the checkout my purse was missing. I had it in my bag when I got there, I am 100% certain cos I checked when I arrived as I always do. I was told to go see the security man and that he had CCTV. He was very rude and dismissive and kept me waiting ages, during which time my credit cards may have been being used by the thief. He told me that he didn't have time to wade through 20 mins of CCTV from numerous cameras, even though I told him my alsmost exact movements. I also told him fo two men who I felt had got uncomfortably close to me, one of whom had bumped into me which could have been a bluff to get my money.No interest. :rolleyes: I was aksed to go home and call th police, he refused to do it. I did not have a mobile then an had no money or cards to get a taxi or bus. They wouldn't even lend me a couple of quid. In my purse I had £60, all my cards, including some ID and membership cards.

Now had this guy had a go he might have seen the act and alerted the police to the criminal while he was still around the town. I commented that it would be a different story if I had stolen from them, he said it would! The police said that the guy should have really tried to help but there was no law to force him. They requested Tescos go through the CCTV but Tescos declined and the police did not have the manpower apparently. All I can say is I am glad that on that occassion my keys were nto attached to my purse because the prescrioption in my wallet had my address on it too and he might have gone home and burgled me.

I also had an incident where CCTv showing my partner getting assulated was tampered with and th epolice did no more. Needless to say I am not a fan as it is not being used to help people who are vitims of crime at all. Worringly though it is all there if anyone wants to see it and I wonder if there si somethign more seedy going on.

Seems to me like something of a dilemma, we want cameras to help protect us, but we don't want to be watched.
I wonder in a philosophical sense what is the difference between a CCTV and simply an eye?

Sounds like you're had some bad experiences SB.
Must admit i have no first hand experience of this technology.
It's a strange thing really, i guess most of us welcome it if it can help with crime, but like many i don't want it to be ubiquitous-far too George Orwell for my liking.
I heard recently that they can use it when litter is thrown from cars-they can trace the number plate back to the owner-which sounds good-we've all seen people throw crap from cars, but then you think well hang on, what kind of society are we creating here-order but at what price.
I guess it's a case of where do you draw the line.

I do not want to be protected nor "looked after"! Those cameras always serve the government purpose (essentialy making money) and criminals alike. We, the vast majority, in the middle, finance it and have our children and ourselves abducted and robbed anyway!

:coffee:

Yeah, i've never seen the evidence that crime is going down as you suggest-with all this CCTV we might at least expect a massive drop in crime-which isn't the case

Yeah I have no confidence in it even though I agree with it in principle to reduce and solve crime. And I tell you what really would me up and be careful of this - if someoen starts on you in formt of CCTV be weary fo them pushign you in fornt of it to block it, and then catchign you, the innocent party, on CCTV trying to push them out of they way. That is what happened to me, and that meant that the part fo the CCTV that was still there had e lookign liek I was startign the fight! :rolleyes:

Thing is like anything else that we introduce to combat crime, folks find away around it to avodi gettign done. If you ask me these CCTVs are beign used to make it look like the police are doing something, when they seem to do less, and to make money on traffic offences. Plus of course to keep town centres clean - but stuf fthe folks who live round the corner and get it moved to their area. :rolleyes:

did anyone see the news story this moning about the possibility of putting CCTV in to exam rooms to catch cheats? I was fairly surprised to learn that apparently some schools already use CCTV in classrooms to monitor teaching and behaviour..... :blink:

Actually there is no reason why that should not work in exams. You are invigilated anyway and really should be concentrating on your exam paper, so I don't feel an abuse of the CCTV (as long as it films all pupils) or an invasion of privacy.

I also think in some professional sitautions it is fair enough; I spent enough time being recorded in my work as the police and customs do to ensure I questioned people fairly. If you interview a criminal you record them so why not film them as well? Just so logn as it doesn't end up liek CCTV for crime outside - which i shouldn't in controlle denvironemnts, then it might actually be useful. Tbh I'd have no qualms about being filmed at work cos if you are at work you are supposed to follow conduct codes anyway. But I'd object to being filmed every moment of the day, like when I go for breaks or use the loo!

In fact I sometimes wish I had bene filmed or recorded in some more private meetings becuase then your boss has to watch ti and it can no longer be your word against theirs if they bully or harrass you as mine did. So it does have uses.