Hi everyone. I've not been on here for a quite a while, because I've been going through some family issues.

Just wondering, what do you all think on this topic? Has Christmas lost its meaning? I'ts supposed to be about the birth of the Saviour, Jesus christ, Son of god, but these days , Santa seems to be the central theme to most people, stuffing our faces, and wondering what presents we'll receive. Not to mention how comercial Christmas now is.

I mean, why do people celebrate it these days. Most Christinas that do are non-practicing, and even people of other religions, and for that matter, no religion, take part. It seems very contradicting to me.

Also, houses with decorations usually have decorations of Santa, Rudolph etc..., but where's Jesus?

My husband is not religious, and neither are my parents, and therefore, adhere to this lack of meaning style of Christmas. My Christmas, however, is quite different. I volunteer down at a soup kitchen all day Christmas Day, with the nuns and priests, and on christmas Day, I get up at 6 am, and read the bible and say prayers for about 2 hours. My parents and sibling come to my house for lunch, and we open presens (at most 4 or 5 each). AT 4 pm, I go to church, and at 5pm, got to my husband and I go to my friend Judith's place for dinner.

I am not religious as you know, although I used to go to the Anglican church. And I appreciate Christmas was intended as a Christian festival to celebrate the birth of Christ (although the Pagans did have Yule first to celbrate the Winter solstice and stuff) and that meaning has been lost. I don't think people have to celebrate in a full religious fashion, but I do agree with you about the excesses, selfishness, greed and loss of any meaningful aspect of Christmas and it saddens and sickens me. I think folk have lost the plot, they are greedy, they eat too much, they spend what they don't have and pay the price later, they encourage their kids to be greedy and expectant - it's disgraceful. :angry: They don't seem to look at others around the world and on their doorstep who live in poverty or fear, nor do they think of how stupid they are lining the pockets of those who exploit Christmas for excessive profit when they spend liek mad in the shops and entertainment venues.

Whether religous or not, I think people should have some form of meaning to Christmas. I personally do, it has not always been the happiest of times for me and my family, as it isn't for many others. I use it as a time for reflection and taking stock for the future. I look at relationships and try and make amends too. I always also think about the wider picture of what is going on in the world around me and think what I can do to help this, and when I look at what I have compared to some I feel very lucky. I get a perspective of what is important and I feel everyone shoudl try and do this too. Also they should count themselves lucky to have such wealth and consider others who are less fortuneate or happy. Perhaps instead fo shoppign and eating they could do something for nothing and help others.

Just to put an alternative slant on it...

Christmas is definitely seen as the be-all and end-all for all the consumer spending in shops.

However, Christmas is viewed as a profitable time for charities too, and it is a given that charities rely to an extent on this season of goodwill to help keep afloat. Myself, my heart strings and guilt feelings have been manipulated by the charities, and I found myself writing cheques to about half a dozen of the ones which pester me. It may seem slightly dubious to play on people's guilt feelings, but the causes are good ones and I don't blame them for it. And yes, because of this, it shows people do consider those less fortunate than themselves at Christmas.

Where I do get annoyed with it though is all the questions on 'what are you doing for Christmas?' and the feeling that everyone has to have a good time, or if not, pretend to. That I believe helps contribute to feelings of loneliness and depression amongst those who are not having a good time.

Whatever your religion/feelings on Christmas, people should make of it what they want and not feel forced to go along with things they don't want to!

Anyway, a merry christmas to you all - ho ho!

gratuitous consumer culture has killed Christmas.

Jesus' birth is completely overlooked at Christmas, but like Christianity in general is diminishing as being central to many peoples lives in the UK-i guess Christmas now accurately symbolises where we are as a nation, and what we actually do venerate.
As you suggest consumerism is now the secular be all and end all, and ironically rather than being a happy time -the Samaritans switchboard will be very busy, as usual at this time of year.
As a non-believer I do have a sneaking admiration for people who do believe and who's life seem richer for having a spiritual dimension to them

well, such is life........

One of the great ironies of consumerism is that it doesn't achieve what it is designed to and that's to bring happiness. Happiness levels are actually falling in many western countries ie the United Sates (ok it's not an exact science measuring it, but it's the best we have)
above a certain level of income (i can't remember the exact amount, but it's just enough to keep you fed, clothed etc) happiness levels don't keep rising.
Actually the biggest determinant of what makes us happy or sad is our innate character's, from a very young age ones outlook affects ones happiness level.

I agree entirely. :)

As a kid we had very little, but you appreciated the small things that you got. Like the one chocolate bar if you were lucky in your bag fo fruit at the free pantomiimie outing, or th efish and chips on Christmas Eve followed by th ebottle of cherry ade in the children's area of the local pub. Oh and the same films over Xmas :lol: We looked forward t those things did my sister and I, and had great fun. I do beleive that if you have a little it means something, and if you have too much it means nothing. And with kids today beign so spoilt and demanding things will get wrose with each generation.

Well, let me be the faint glimmer of hope, people; Santa Claus never gives anything to an arsder like me :(


ARSDERS ARE THE FUTURE

Just to add the flip side of the coin here.. I love xmas and I love looking forward to it. I love finding gifts for my children - who arent spoilt and greedy and demanding, thank you very much - and seeing the pleasure it brings them.

Yes, we probably overindulge in eating and drinking at this time of year and I make no apologies for doing so. I feel desperately sorry for those who cant afford it, or have no homes and I hope that any contributions I have made during the year go some way to helping them now and throughout the year, but that doesnt meant I am going to insist my family sits in the dark, has one satsuma in their stocking each and be allowed to watch the queen speech only, before we share a bottle of coke between us and go to bed. My husband and I work hard to provide what we can and when we have a holiday and a chance to enjoy that, then thats what we shall do - without being made to feel guilty over it.

For the record, my two have constantly talked to me about the birth of Jesus over this season - and whilst we are not a religious family, that doesnt mean that they havent appreciated how this all came to be. I am not saying they are angels and dont get over excited and claim to want everything they see on tv - they are small kids who are still learning - but come christmas day, neither of them will sit and sulk and say 'you didnt get me blah blah blah' - they will be happy and grateful for what they open.

Well you obviously educate your children to appreciate things, unlike many Pebs. And you can have a banana with your satsuma too :lol:
I'm only kidding of course, your satsuma thing made me laugh :lol: :hug: When we were kids, if we complained we wnated mor epresents we were told we were lucky cos others had much less than us, which of course was true and we felt very grateful after that. And I can onyl wish you and your lovely family all the best for Christams, and after the year you have had you deserve it to be extra special, and I sincerely hope it is. :hug: I apologise if I have caused you any offence. :(

I think people should do their best for their families and friends, I just worry and get annoyed when I see these people get sucked in and had, and not making their families happy and appreciative in the progress. You should hear some of the arguments I've had to overhear from people after Xmas when they have no money left - terrible :(

And here's a real shocker from not so long ago. My father was bought up on a farm in the post war years. His whole family worked it, inc kids, it was a tough life and his mother was a tough woman, as were many people in that position - she worked dawn till dusk and had 7 children. My dad says at Christmas they were lucky to get anything, they had stockings up and they literally did contain satsumas and the likes. But my dad's sister did something very naughty one year and she received a stocking full of ashes. :o My sister and I felt very lucky to receive anything with that in mind. My mother also had Christmasses where she received nothing, or a very small thing, becuase her mum was very poor having lost her husband in the war. My partner's father was one of those war refugee children so he spent Christams with a bunch of complete strangers one year and wondered if he'd ever see his parents again. It was a miserable time for him, and of course his grandmother who was a European war refugee. I don't want to spread doom and gloom, but these things are real and I count myself very lucky to have a warm home, good food on the table, and my partner with me. :) I just feel that some peopel today need a sharp reminder.

Hp you are mad matey! :lol:

I'm sure if you have been a good arsder, Santa Claus will leave you something :)

:moody: three times I have tried to sit down and reply and been called away - why do people want to keep me busy when I have a slight headache?

no offence taken SB :) its just you seemed to have a sweeping statement there about all kids being spoilt and greedy and, as a parent, felt the need to defend my kids at least!

I do take your point about the rows and the debt people find themselves in though. Although, I dont put that down to always being greedy and so forth - unfortunately, the pressures of todays life to keep up with the neighbours means that some do spend more than they should. I just hope it happens to less people this year :)

And the same good wishes to you and yours hun - you totally deserve a good christmas :hug: (hopefully by avoiding all bugs for starters!) Your story about the stocking full of ashes really made me :blink: I hope I get a bit more than that this year!

How dare they keep pestering you? :rolleyes: :D

You should hear some kids moan that I've heard before. And their parents pandering to it to, which I feel is not the way to go. I heard parents brag the other day about 500 quids worth of stuff that the kids had picked out themselves. :blink: I do genuinely feel that the gnerations will progress into greedier more expectant and less' happy with a reasonable amount of stuff' people if this doesn't alter. Those stories I told you took place in the 1940s and 50s, during and post war. Times were very tough then as my parents and George's will tell you of course, but that seemed to breed a generation of appreciative and grateful kids. We were always reminded of this, but many kids now won't have been. And it bred a generation of people who took responsibility for their actions and didn't demand from others. You only have to look around at some of the young parents and kids today and see an expectant, often scrounging and claimant culture to see that this is happening. And when you see people committing crimes that aren't born form poverty but greed you know we are going downhill - you know like teenagers stealing money for luxury goods noocos they are hungry.

I do appreciate the pressure on folk to keep up with the neighbours, but I never get into that. And George is so anti that kind of thing that as a couple we really don't have issues over that. In fact our neighbours have the issues more than us :lol: Still we like to be different, and I got sick of them moaning about my ivy so I've now grown it to the extent it is bearing wonderful seasonal fruit - it's a kind of protest plant! :lol: I suppose if you have kids it is harder not to get pressured. I knwo my sister said she overpsent on clothes for her boy cos she did not want him bullied at school! :yikes: That's nto the answer but I can see why folks do it.

I have no answers to this, but I just feel that some aspects of how we celebrate and act at Xmas do not help. :) And maybe the way we celebrate Xmas is a relfection of problems in our culture? God I'm so political, in the blood - sorry! :lol:

Thanks for the good wishes, George is better and I am not too bad ta, :) just praying no viruses kick in tomorrow night like last year. In fact you see there you have it, if you are healthy at Xmas then you are lucky and I'd sooner have that than any presents at all. I won't have many anyway, so I better make the most f it! :lol: Think of all those poor folks in hospital and stuff. Glad it's not me, one night was enough and I got a virus there! :rolleyes: Anyway at least you will have a relaxing day with no cooking, is there room for me perchance ;) :lol: George has just fetched the Xmas day food from M&S without a hitch, although we've ended up with bigger amounts than we need as ususal cos they had no smaller ones! :rolleyes: And I'm annoyed nwo cos we've played into their hands by buying them :lol: I Shall be eatign salmon all week !

Anyway catch you later on :hug:

I think the main thing I dislike about Christmas now is the "have to have it" culture. The whole making things limited so you get parents queuing up at all hours so their kiddiwinks are not disappointed, it's such a shame. And also people getting into huge debt just so that they can provide what they feel they ought to, it's not right.

SB, I totally sympathise with the thrust of your posts. Whilst doing my Christmas shopping nearly every year, I end up despairing at the amount of screaming little brats who demand this and that are are generally so self-centred the world could explode and they wouldn't notice. :angry: Obviously not all kids are like that, in fact to some extent it's the result of poor parenting, but I still find it very annoying, having always had to work hard to get where I am.

However, that's certainly not to promulgate religion in lieu of the whole 'pander to the kids' craze. As someone who's strongly pro-secularity, I'd much rather see the vast majority of the country's kids happy than religion being shoved in my face day after day. In some ways it might seem hypocritical that I even celebrate Christmas given my indifference to its supposed origin, but I just view this time of year as a chance to celebrate, something to lift the spirits in the middle of the cold winter. In short, I guess Christmas is whatever you make it... I just dislike what most people make it. :wacko:

Totally agree WA, it's not right at all and it's sad. Can't people just say 'no" to it and not pander to the commercial giants? If the parents can't take a stand and so no, then hwo the hell are their kids ever gonna learn to say no? No wonder they are all on bloody drugs :wacko:

Great post Wise, your last sentence hits the nail bang on the head. :ok: And in terms of making it what you want to make it, sometimes it's hard as the commercial and social agenda dictates to us. Say I want a simple meal out spontaneously with mates - we can't get one, we have to prebook or fight crowds, pay more and wait ages. Everything costs more and needs pre booking in December which screws up my birthday and my partner's for a start. And if I want to go out Xmas day I have to pay double for a cab, and find places that are open. I've taken to eating in a Muslim area the last couple of weeks cos they don't give you any of that shit. In fact I've been today, and got a place to eat Boxing Day, no booking fee and normal prices - curry, yaaaay! :clap: They've even ruined New Year by making us buy tickets in advance for everything - I used to crawl pubs and wind up wherever I fancied. I feel a distinct lack of freedom and normal choice this time of year.

Anyway on the religious side - if you want to celebrate at a different time , e.g. Yule, you don't get the time off. I used to work with a practicing Pagan, she booked her Yule leave before Christmas, and did her Winter solstice celebrations and all. When it was Christams day she'd just get on as best she could but hated the fact everything was shut. She seemed to have a more relaxing and meaningful Christmas than most, celebrating life and nature rather than shopping and overeating. Used to quite envy her actually.

Due to the fact I don't have any kids, I hate Christmas. For me it's for kids and for retail. That's why I choose to go away for Christmas, as I am doing this year! A few of us are going on a Nile Cruise tomorrow (Xmas Eve for a week) and when we get back, the commercialism that is Christmas will be over! :yahoo:

With that, I bid you



and a HAPPY & HEALTHY 2008

Yep, the family aspect is overplayed and single people seem to be leppers at Christmas :rolleyes: Me and my friend both think so and a few years back we decided we'd go away, bu twhen we saw we coudl get the same holiday half price in Jan, we booked it for then and spent all Xmas lookign forward to our holiday. We went to Tunisia and had a ball. :D Great idea QJ, I really hope you have a great time and enjoy it. :ok: Have a great holiday :hug:

As a single person, totally agree. Christmas is not my favourite time of year at all. :rolleyes: My sister invited me to spend the day with her family, but I just told her I didnt think I would feel like driving 80 odd miles and back esp. as Im not feeling great . So , guess Ill have to make the best of it on my own . :shrug:
Its a real shame, cos I used to love Christmas .

Awww Al :hug:

I knwo what you mean, I've been in that boat myself and I know a few folks who are also. A guy I know had a similar offer, he wanted to be able to chill and have a drink, but you can't if you are driving. I've a mate who prefers to be on his own - I tell him he can always coem here if he wants but I respect hsi preference. He hates Xmas too, he just treats it as a day to eat, drink andchill out with music - he's a huge Who fan. :ok: I've been with friends before, but the invite is for the day only, which is cool, but the cost of the transport is a problem as it's double for cabs Xmas day which is annoying. My firend offered to drive m home but then I fel tguilty cos eh couldn't have a drink so I left early. My best mate gets annoyed cos she is expected to be taxi to family all day Boxing day and they sit drinking and she can't have one. Most folk drink over Xmas and forget that their invited guests have gotta drive :rolleyes:

I'm glad you posted cos this is one thing that pisses me off at Xmas - all these folk going on about it being great, and havign family etc and they just make people feel more isolated. :( I also feel that many folk are less welcoming at Xmas to firends and push them out in favour f family. That's wrong, I've always left open invitwes to lone friends, had a couple round but not last year. My firedn had had a tough time in rehab (serious - he was an alcoholic) and spit with his gf, he came here and said it was his best ever Xmas he ever had. I'm gald he said so, that is what Xmas is about. Sorry to go on, I've had a few tomite :blush:

Anyway don't worry and just relax and chill out at Xmas, my philosophy is it's oen day and it is soon over thank ggod and then we can all get on with our normal lives and a new year. :ok:

I have to say I agree with that...

I've been looking forward to this christmas this year more than any other christmas because it's the first that my little boy will at least half understand what's going (or that could be a bad thing)

Sad as it sounds for a 22 yr old male i've had a delightful time walking around shops buying him presents and also "Santa Stop Here" signs

It's been great, can't wait for the 25th...

:hug:

hope you're feeling better and are able to get some quality time in there Al

:)

:ok: Thanks for that,I feel better now. :D
Roll on the AO !! :)

Really? Well i am very glad, :hug:

Tere is too much emphasis on Xmas and build up, it is onyl a day and just ignore it of you have to. one Xmas I redecorated my old flat with a few beers and music on, at least i achieved something and it went very quickly. My partner doesn't care for Xmas, he prefers to get it over with and look forward to Januray. I love Jan, if you don't it's cos you spent oo much at Xmas. :lol: Serves ya right, my ma always taughtme to plan ahead. :D

Besided my partner's father is in a care home for the first year of his life being 75. He ha da stroke, hs mum's Xmas with her husband of 40 years is going to be in the home at a communal meal where he eats mush cos he can't swallow. So we think ourselves very lucky indeed. Poor geroge's dad and mum, but they won't let us come becuase they are too proud.

Yep, Jan has the Ao and laso the darts for me too. :ok: Lookign forward to both and soem very cheap deasl too, so why nto arrange somethign Al :ok:

Come with us next year Al!

Believe me, I know how you feel! :hug: Hence why we're paying £500 extra just to go away for the Xmas week :yikes:

To tell you the truth, it's the build up that is worse than Xmas day. Once Xmas day is here you think to yourself "so what, it's just another day", it's just the build up. But I still am glad I'm going away from all the crap.

Thanks for your goodwishes SB. :hug:

Have a great holiday QJ :hug:

hope you don't go into denial B) :P

You are so right there QJ, the build up gets folk down. I just which folk would shut up about Xmas until 24th December like they used to. There's no need to go on about it s there? And becuase of Xmas you've had to pay extra! I hope you have a realyl realy great, fabulous marvellous time. :D I'm sure you will. And my best mate has bene on a Nile cruise, she said it was fab :ok: Just do as you are told - when they say DON'T eat there, DOn'T eat - soem dcotro ignored this and got ill the fool! :lol: She has some stunnign photos and it will eb great QJ. Enjoy :ok:

sorry SB and no offence, but its easy to say that if you arent the parent standing there watching your child crying because they have been made fun off because they arent quite the same as their mates. I remember as a child having cheaper versions of everything cos thats how my parents operated - and its not even they couldnt afford it - and being made to feel different without anyone even trying! Fortunately, I was strong as a kid and could ride it out - but for kids who arent, thats a tough lonely life you are giving them in an environment where life is already hard.

I am not saying parents have to be EVERYTHING their kids want, but if they want to buy their kids the best - bloody well let them. I know why I want too and why I do when I can.

I think I will bow out of this thread as reading it makes me more and more angry. Its all very well going on about how its all about families, and isolating people, and pandering to spoilt children... how bout you all going on about these things and slagging of my way off life? Making great big assumptions about people with kids and families and claiming that people with that way of life make you all sick and should all shut up etc and f*ck off?

As far as I am aware, I dont go round shoving my way of doing Christmas in other peoples faces, and I am sure those with families on here dont either. If you dont want to know what I am up to for Christmas, dont ask! I only tell in response to being asked - and I ask people what they are doing because I am geniunely interested and there is nothing wrong with showing an interest in others.

As a single person I never found people with families enjoying that time offensive - I always found it heart warming. As a couple I enjoyed the extra meet up with all my mates - single or otherwise - and getting into the festive spirit. And as a parent I find another joy in Christmas. So sue me! Oh, and despite having my own family - all my friends have been welcome over the Christmas period and this will be the ninth year running we are hosting the annual New Year festitivities.

I totally agree with the posts in here about how it can be too much and too expensive - unfortunately, thats just the way consumerism has gone - you cant blame all the families in the world - there are plenty of single people out there who want the best and latest things for themselves too and get themselves into debt for it - and I even agree about having to shop amongst hoards of screaming kids - I hate that which is why I dont take my own! - and I hate how christmas starts earlier and earlier each year. But alot of the posts in here seemed to be aimed solely at having a go at people who dare to enjoy christmas with their kids and families and lay the blame at their door. I have to say, I found those comments particularly hurtful and thats why I will stay away from this thread from now on.

I hope that you all have a great Christmas, however, much you hate it, see you in the New Year maybe.

I'm an atheist and I love Christmas! It's a time I can spend with my whole family, which is fairly unusual, and also a time when we actually bother to make the effort to see members of the family we don't see often :) I love working out what to buy people, although I hate shopping - but that's true at any time of year - and I absolutely love watching people open the presents i've bought them, probably more than I enoy getting presents these days!

My friend who has children seems capable of being able to explain to her children that they don't have much money so can't afford a lot of expensive gifts - the kids are quite happy with that! :) And i don't ever remember demanding expensive gifts when I was younger either - I think I was happy to just be getting anything - and I certainly never got the newest computer games or anything like that. :shrug:

Like someone said, Christmas is what you make of it - and if some people choose to spend loads of money on presents then that's their choice, if others choose to enjoy it despite not being Christian - again, their choice, and no one is actually forced to celebrate xmas (except that you have to have 2 days off over xmas I suppose) - I'd be interested if people who don't like Christmas would be happier if they banned it from all towns, banned xmas menus from all restaurants, and forced people to work on xmas day and boxing day?

Of course I appreciate that, and no offence taken whatsoever. :hug: I can see you are not amused from your later post, but I feel I owe you the courtesy of a reply.

I think I've said somehwere that my sister overspent on her son's clothes because she didn't want him to get bulied; but this made her think and annoyed her because she is not a conformist person and felt she was being forced and pressured. I feel sorry for kids that get bullied cos they haven't got the right clothes, but pandering to social demands is NOT the answer, although I appreciate why parents do it. I wonder why kids aren't being taught to accept and embrace difference? Hard I know, which is why my sis did what she did as you can't change the world over night. I don't recall too much of this at my school, as no one was very well off and we mainly had uniforms later on. Mind you we borke the rules with that, and in my day being different was something people seemed to aim for in teh late 70s-early 80s. I was remembered 20 yrs after leaving shcool for my clothes rather than my brain!

I am trying to remember back - it's a long time ago - and the kids who used to suffer were the scruffy ones and I always felt sorry for them as it was not their fault. It wasn't so much their clothes but the cleanliness and maintenance of these by their parents. Despite little money my sis and I had quite nice clothes, but that was cos my mum was appearance obsessed and very clean coming from a poor background and large family.I don't think getting picked on had anything to do with her clothes choices, it was her working class pride. My mother is immaculate, she would get up early to straighten and style her hair, and go to work in a factory in a suit and stillettos in the 80s, and put her overall over the top when she got there. But when she came out you had no idea where she worked, unlike some of the other women. In fact she often over dressed us or dressed us a bit different and we got picked on for looking too good or different soemtimes! In fact I was beaten up a couple of times purely for my clothes, but by that point I was picking them myself and I wasn't going to conform no matter what. When I was 14 I was the first person in town with a mini skirt - and this was just before they were revived in the late 70s for the sixties mod revival. I saw one in a magazine, I think it was Mary Quant or something and I wanted one, so my mum made it for me. I went on a school trip and folks would not stop talkign about it, but they all worse them 3 months later. And then i started living in vintage shops, and never looked back. And you know the Trilby hat? Well stuff Pete Dohertyy, I wore one at 13 and a very similar jacket. I shoudl sue him :D I guess I am syaign ti's good to be different IMo but depends how you do it I suppose.

I can appreciate what it was like for you at school as my parents set limits on things too. My mum was quite thrifty with things and being a seamstress she was a bloody good dressmaker so could jazz up bargains, and by my teens she was making clothes that I was designing myself :D She knitted my punk mohair jumpers too, and when I ripped my clothes to be different, she would fix them so as they did not totally fray! :lol: I can see why you worry about you kids, but also you say your experience made you different and tougher and I don't think that is a bad thing, and in the day of the designer lable anonimity I wish more parents would encourage their kids to be different. My sister's boy has actually developed his own image out of his clothes and calls the shots on clothes now at the ripe old age of 12. I just wonder when the body piercings and tatoos and red hair will kick in :lol: (that's my sis's look btw)

This probably doesn't make much sense, but that's my experince and recollection and thoughts. And thatis all reminds me of that tearjerker by Dolly Parton abotu the coat of many colours.

I've just caught up with this thread, so instead of quoting you all, I'll just do it all in this post.

Firstly, the OP has raised a great point about the commercialism of christmas, and I would have to agree with her post 100%.

Secondly, you all raise good points about spoilt-brats, tow hom christmas is nothing more than receiving gifts they'll probably not be using in a few months time.

Pebs, I mean no offence, and I don't think anyone else did either. From one mother to another, I appreciate how you celebrate your day, and of course, I will be giving my daughters, Monica and Martina, a few presents in the coming years. Obviously now I won't be, because they are so young. Being a vet, and a former model, I have money, but I'm not a multi-millionaire, and my children will not be spoilt rotten. There's a fibe line between treating and spoiling. They will be brought up to know the true meaning of Christmas.

As for the religious side, that, at large, I feel has almost completely gone. A case in point is the fact that Dinky Jo says she is celebrating it, despite not believing in God, which is its original meaning. That, in my opinion, is complete and utter contradiction of one's beliefs.

My husband Michael is not all that religious, but I am, and my children will be brought up to know the true meaning of Christmas, not the materialism that it has become.

Today, Christmas Eve, I spent my time feeding homeless, and porr people in a soup kitchen. It broke my heart to see these deprived people, especially kids! We brought a bit of joy to their day, and that's is, in my opinion, about which Christmas is. Bringing joy to others, being kind, sharing, caring, and remembering that God sent his Son down to save mankind.

Sure, have a few presents, turkey, cchristmas pudding, whatever, just don't overdo it, and forget what the true meaning of this wonderful day is.

As for the

I can't speak for others but speaking for myself, I am not personally slating you or your family, your lifestyle choice or Christmas celebrations. I wanted to make that clear. It's the wider social picture in a nutshell. I won't reiterate cos I've said what I think and I stand by it. Sorry you have taken personal offence. :(

Whether you or others like it or not, Christmas is an upsetting time for a lot of people, and I blame social attitudes for this, and many of us perpetuate these. People can feel isolated, worthless and even suicidal due to the social pressure and expectation/image of this idyllic family Christmas - the irony is that this is mainly a myth! It angers and upsets me that our attitudes around a short national holiday make people feel like that and it is totally unneccessary. We should be making people feel good not awful, and many people do not even stop to think about others at Christmas which pisses me off totally. I know the Samaritans will vouch for this and I used to be one a while ago. You might not have treated people like this, but there are still millions out there feeling miserable and isolated, and often a failure because they are reminded of what they don't have rather than what they do have. I know you pay atttention to all your friends at Xmas and I believe you truly, but not everyone is like that trust me. So much is geared t families and I guess couples, that single folks feel left out. In general most folks go to see family at Xmas so their single friends are not wlecome or would feel like they are imposing. I find that annoying and sad. I am lucky, best friend's family let me have several Xmas dinners with them when I was alone and living miles away and did not want to visit my folks cos there were family arguments going on.

For those with no family, or family problems it can be quite a miserable time. My best friend lost her mum to cancer a few years back, her dad cries every Christmas cos it's not the same without her. My partner's mum and dad have a nursing home meal to look forward to thanks to his stroke, and my sister's had custody battles to contend with, plus she's been alone with a baby in a horrid council house when they broke up. There are numerous bad situations for many people and much worse than this. I won't lie to you- I've had lots of bad family experiences at Christmas, as others have. Deaths, (I burried my grandad bewteen Xmas and New Year, and only 4 family members came, then my mum fell out with her siblings cos they never showed), break ups - my parents nearly split, hardship - my dad lost his job, he had a nervous breakdown :( ; my mum had a row with my ex-fiance, she threw us out on Xmas Eve when we were staying for the holiday! His mother then spent Xmas trying to get us to fix a date in her church! I had to watch another idiot ex (who was good riddance) later hook up with my sister despite all my warnings about him, sat round my mum and dad's house eatign their food and drinking their drinks lying and charming them and I was dying to say something but couldn't (she had his child, then thankfully they split !). My sister had a bust up with parents and left home a few days before Xmas once aged just 17; then I left home on 2nd January for similar reasons :lol: Years later at uni I had plans to go back to my parents for Xmas and my mum was annoyed that I'd stayed at my bessie mates rather than hers and told me to f8ck off there! :lol: So I did. Then she moaned all bloody holiday! I think the stresses of money and expectation affected my mum and dad a lot - they worked overtime so as we could have gifts, and they BOTH worked - my mother never stayed at home, but she did all of that side too :bow: - so I'm not surpised they argued a lot and I don't hold that against them at all. They hardly saw each other cos of their shift patterns. That's how life is and they had a lot on their plates and I doubt a lot fo couples today could coep with what they have coped with - they'd be broken down and . broekn up within 6 months. So I credit my parents for that, and I forgive them entirely.

There was also another situation that sprung to mind - George lived in Sheffield when we first met, shared with a couple. He moved here, then they wanted to move down, I put his mate up whilst at interviews, George's contacts got him a great job; we got her a job opening which came off, drove her to interviews, sent papers every week so they could look for flats. They moved, wanted Xmas with us, which I was delighted to agree to. I offered it at mine, but they insisted on theirs. Then a mate of mine was alone for Xmas, a bit depressed, so I invited him but went to clear it with them first, offering to rearrange to mine. Well, she was so cold about it, said she wouldn't spend Xmas with someone she didn't know, and her partner was really annoyed. She then said she'd bought all the stuff inc some oversized turkey, and we said Ok, we'll still go ahead, forget my friend - he said no in the end anyway. She became really controlling over it all, she started making jibes about my cooking and said she'd handle it, I was insulted but thought fine. But then they went wierd on us. We had no idea what to do, about 3 days before Xmas she called the whole thing off. We said we were dissappointed but no worries if that is what she felt. Then they ignored our calls and letters. We were friends for a few years, and we helped them so much - plus put up with quite a few of their arguments which were very voca. I also supported her a lot becuase her choice fo partner caused a problem cos she was Pakistani and he was white British. We felt slapped in the face tbh and that was that. :shrug: And all that seemd to start this off was me asking if a lonely mate could eat with us at Xmas. :unsure:

You can probably see why I've had enough of that side of things, and I prefer my Xmases here with George although he is Mr Bah-Humbug himself, and I'd be lying if I said that every Christmas those things don't come back to haunt me cos they do - how can they not? But I can live with that, but I won't pretend to be full of fake festivity either, I just enjoy the peace and tranquilty that i never had years ago. And it's others I am more concerned about, I just want people to appreciate them. Anyway I've had a wonderful gift for Christmas - Felix the cat and he's really taking to us and has moved in, bless him :) . He's getting very touchy feely despite his years of neglect and abuse, and he's upstairs now asleep, I've even bought him a small gift. So I am thankful for that and the fact that I haven't quite got the flu and if it holds off I'll be a happy woman. :)

Anyway from my perspective, and not speaking for others on the thread, I only wanted people to stop and think and consider others accross the board, not just their own family and firends. To me, that is what Christmas is all about, that's my personal belief and values. I am sorry if I have come accross as being selfish or attacking you or others, and sorry for having upset you :( And sorry for taking hours to answer, I've been up and down with phone, door cat etc. and having a bit of a reflection on things as I type - not necessarily a happy one - but thanks for putting me in this postion because something useful has emerged out of it and I will be doing something I should have done years ago very soon, so sincere thanks for that. :ok: And I hope you and your family have a wonderful time over this holiday, as I've said before you really deserve it after the year you've had and please don't be upset. If you want to tell me to f*ck off that's fine by me, but I sincerely mean it when I wish you all the best this Christmas and the comimg year. :hug: :hug: :hug:

And I hope I do see you next year or I'll be very upset !

I share your sentiments SF, and I hope you and your family have a lovely Christmas. :hug:

I had a reply all written :badpc:
anyway just quickly:

There is so much hype and traditon at christmas it is easy, even for Christians, to get caught up in it all and forget what the true meaning of Christmas is - which is not giving, getting, family and food - but that God loves us so much (despite all we do) that he sent his son as a human to die to save us
I love getting together with my family and stuffing myself with great food, but I like going to church and being reminded of the reason for the season

I don't want to comment too much but I think that much of the buying and the commercialism is a reflection on society - kids (and adults) get so much during the year that Christmas has to be overdone to make it special

People get depressed when their Christmas doesn't match up to idea of Christmas that we are presented with constantly at this time of year - which is very sad

There are a lot of traditions concerning Christmas that, if you stop to think about it, are really silly, such as Aussies singing carols such as 'White Christmas' and 'Jingle bells' (although aussie jingle bells is great)

Also on the subject of Christmas carols, when you hear/sing religious Christmas carols do you listen to the words? do you think about what you are singing/listening to? It is interesting to hear people proclaiming Christ as lord through their singing when they probably are not at all thinking of the meaning of what they are saying

That will happen eventually, as there are so many people in this country who are from other countries and religions and don't wish to celebrate Xmas on the 25th December. They have their own religious festivals. There are plenty of these people now willing to work Xmas day, such as taxis and restaurants and they are already doing so. I've heard thsi might lead to employers being able to stay open over Xmas without forcing folks to work. And if you buy into the commercialism of Xmas and shop on a Sunday then you cannot object to this.

In terms of it being banned, certain aspect sf Xmas already are being controlled to avoid offending other relgions - such as sending Xmas cards at work with religous content, and putting up less decorations. That si certainyl the case round here form what I hear. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that, but it is and will happen. With regard to banngin Xmas menus and the likes, I never said they shoudl eb banned but then why shoudl I and others who wish to have a normal time at normal prices have them rammed down our throats if we don't want them? It's about choice and some aspects of the Christmas build up don't give us choice and we are a liberal country. :shrug: Choice is all folk want.

Great last sentence

because it's so much easier and much more fun to think all kids are greedy, ungrateful little sh*tbags

that isn't the case at all but as is the usual with the parasite population in this country they love to sensationalize the bad points because that gives their pitiful existance some satisfaction


some kids, dare I say most kids are brought up with certain values that actually in your deluded minds might just f*cking pass them as human beings

Hope you have a great christmas you bunch of f**king depressent killjoys.

I'll have no shame tomorrow morning when i'm watching my little boy open his presents, i'll get alot more joy watching his face in the morning then I will from recieving gifts myself

Should I feel guilty for making a great day for my boy? Should I f*ck....

Well good for you, but I think calling us a bunch of f-ing depressants is nasty and vindictive. There's no need for that at all, but if it suits you then say it. It's also disrespectful to those people who might happen to be depressed throug no fault of their own, it's prejudiced and nasty language to use. Maybe you should spare a thought forthem whilst openinn your presents..

So those of us who have said what we've said about social decline and poor values the youth of today are parasites? Wooooah ... I think I need a reality check ... ro maybe you do? What the hell does that mean? What an insult.

I don;t think all kids are nasty litte sh*ts at all - and I NEVER said they were. However if you'd met some of the kids I have met and had misery caused by them and their blameless 'my kids are great" f*cking parents then you'd most likely take a very much more objective view. Especially as if you hadn't got kids yourself causing trouble everywhere and wonder exactly why you should have to put up with that crap becuase they are 'just kids" when you never wanted any in the first place. And also especiaily if they not only threw stones at you, smashed up your property, and accused your partner of beign a f*ckign paedophile BUT stole the bricks from your garden too and threw them through the window of immigrants in a racist attack for which you had the police knocking on your door. :rolleyes: Now that might seem extreme but it happens and happens EXACTLY because of what I said. And did the parents own up? No they bloody didn;t, they carried on lying and cheating and screwing over decent folk like me. But I got them in the end, but it was no fun but the party is over now for them and my life is peaceful again. I had a similar conversation about this with the police, they backed up my every word when they found otu what they were like. I don't think I had to be a parasite or whatever to think this - it is reality.

Now all kids are not like that, but you spoke as though I was saying that and I wasn't. There are however always two sides to every story, there's mine. You can accept it or deny it, I really don't care. I coudl think of something appropriate to say here but I won't stoop to your level.

And on that note good bye, I;ve had enough of this . You can't even voice an opinion without over defensive and over sensitive idiots givign you a load fo abuse and insultign yoru poitn of view, F-words a go-go. Now did I ever use one before? No. Did I insult anyone with derogatory and prejudiced words? No. I rest my case. Lots of folk feel the same way as me, live with it or ... well I won't say.

Happy *******Christmas!