Does anyone agree that Federer's serve since Wimbledon has been equal to that of Sampras?

Before then it was good but at the moment it is Godlike and though people saying it is pulling him through it is just an equal aspect the game as Nadal's fitness or Nalbandian's angles - more so infact.

I feel his victory over Nadal at TMC despite Nadal's poor form was really crushing for Rafa. Federer was not elated in his victory like last year when he was fighting so hard for the win - this time he strolled through the second set to victory.

The H2H has been slowly turning is this a point when Federer can gain parity and the upper hand perhaps with most victory's off clay and 50:50 upon it?

We'll see about the 50:50 on clay, but he's already winning most of the matches off clay, having now won the last four.

For me, Federer's serve doesn't have the bite or power of Sampras's (but I am prepared to be proven wrong with stats).

I also am not sure you can say Federer is 50:50 with Nadal on clay with Nadal still unbeaten at the French. He did beat Federer twice on clay this year compared to Federer's once. That's 66.6:33.3 this year isn't it?

Not sure Fed is quite up there with Sampras on serve, but agree lately Fed has been superb in serving. We have to remember Pete had probably the best serve of all time, i don't just mean speed but it was hard to read and consistent.

True Gav this year is 66:33 to Nadal but I meant Federer has started to slowly edge up on their H2H and with the psychological edge of this last victory I could envisage him taking complete control of non-clay encounters and 50% of the clay ones in the future.

Just a prediction but nadal was behaving very negatively in that second set and his after match interview was a bit submissive.

Also for the serve I of course give Sampras the nod for his serve throughout his career I just beleive in the last half of this year's season Federer has matched some of these moments.

Examples of stats are:

Fed def. Nadal 6-4 6-1 (TMC 07 S)
11 aces in 9 service games
81% 1st service in
82% 1st serves won
77% service points won
1BP faced and saved

Fed def. Nadal 7-6 4-6 7-6 2-6 6-2 (Wim 07 F)
24 aces in 25 service games
71% first service in
68% of all service points won

Fed def. Ferrer 6-2 6-3 6-2 (TMC 07 F)
9 aces in 12 service games
83% first serves won
4BP faced and saved

Fed def. Roddick 6-4 6-2 (TMC 07 RR)
7 aces in 9 service games
82% first service in
74% first serves won
87% second serves won

To compare with GREAT Sampras matches:

Sampras def. Agassi 6-7 7-6 7-6 7-6 (US 01 QF)
25 aces in 24 service games
62% first services in
79% first serves won
58% second serves won
3BP faced and saved

Sampras def. Agassi 6-3 6-4 7-5 (Wim 99 F)
16 aces in 16 games
66% first serves in
89% first serves won
39% second serves won
4BP faced and saved

So just to back up I'm not saying Federer is serving better than Sampras just on an equal level to him recently (Wim 07 onwards).

I agree that Federer's serve has improved and is probably the best overall serve in the ATP today (arguably Karlovic as a one off shot)... but comparing to Sampras is tough I guess as technology has moved on. Really tough to tell.

Nadal just can't seem to match Federer on hard courts anymore that is true.... whereas on clay I still think he has his number, although lets wait and see next year maybe??? I remember after Hamburg (it was Hamburg wasn't it?!??) when Feds battered Nadal after a dodgy first set everyone, including me, was beginning to doubt Nadal's edge on clay over Roger but when it really came down to it at Roland Garros it was Rafa who proved that he is still the king of the red stuff. But as I say....let's see what 08 brings us. I am convinced Roger can win the French at least once in his career! :ok: I am also convinced, and not many will agree, that at one point Rafa can win Wimbledon given his age.

Also some more info I found on speed although we know speed is not really totally relevant:

Fastest 1st serve
Fed 135 mph 2006 AO against Haas
Sam 135 mph 1998 US against Safin

Fastest 2nd serve
Fed 126 mph 2004 Halle against Haas
Sam 127 mph 2001 US against Agassi

Average 1st serve
Fed 114-121 mph
Sam 114-123 mph

Average 2nd serve
Fed 90-105 mph
Sam 90-115 mph

So all in all their service speed is pretty similar, their accuracy we cannot compare but from the period I am talking about dominance on serve Fed's stats match pretty well to the Sampras ones as well.

As for they clay comment. The resignation of Nadal during, exiting and interviewing Shanghai showed me a psychological blow. I think Federer can translate that into a few more clay wins given his Hamburg breakthrough and improved serving.

Good stats FW. For me there is no doubt that there is more angles and spin in Fed's serve due to strings and tension...and the slight drop in pace might be mostly due to more angles and spin. With a 37 kg strung racket and 85inc2 frame, The ball could not be worked as much in Sampras' racket. Let's not forget that from 1999 Sampras' serve got returned by a few players. On grass in 2001 Sampras only managed 20 aces v Federer. That is a mere 4 aces per set. Federer served 4 in one game last week.

I agree however that Sampras serve at his time was a bigger weapon than Fed's serve nowadays (except of course last week). But that is due to the opposition and not their relative serves. But in terms of absolute comparison, there is certainly no difference or most likely in Federer's favour.

I have also been trawling through some Sampras matches identified as his great performances and have found second serve % of points won as quite low. Compare this to Federer who leads the table this year at 59% of second serves won!

46% of 2nd serves won against Muster at the 97 Australian

Despite his legendary second serve ace maybe this is a part of the Sampras game that is overrated?

Slowly but surely I think Federer is going to match Pete's service level which could be another factor in the debate of GOAT.

I would be more interested in overall second serve points won...not just in certain matches.

As to the debate of GOAT.... I think it's become too popular to call a player the GOAT and possiby debate it.

Once Federer's career is done (assuming he reaches at least 14 slams....I am very confident he will) I think the majority of tennis fans, myself included, will look back and realise he is the GOAT. Others will still point to Borg/Laver/Sampras for their own reasons. I can't see everyone agreeing though! It will be an age old debate in years to come!

ah... just imagine in years to come... the die-hard Sampras fans replaced by the die-hard Fed fans - the arguments of 'how can you compare?'... 'its two totally different eras'....

its an argument that never gets old - just swaps names!

Just watched Fed 05 AO QF with Agassi, boy was he playing well and checked the stats. That was an amazing service performance so I thought I would include those stats as well.

For those wanting the links type in sysphy11 into youtube there's a bunch of good videos.

Fed def. Agassi 6-3 6-4 6-4 (AO 05 QF)
22 aces in 15 service games
65% first service in
76% first serves won
61% second serves won
4BP faced and saved

Also 200 weeks at number 1 woohoo!