It is rather disturbing to me to see the "black sheep" election posters of the Swiss SVP, the largest Swiss party, which is running a campaign based on xenophobia.

I would like to see Swiss tennis players speaking out against this outrage, but I have not seen anything so far.

I saw that report too. It seems as though there is a real undercurrent of racial fear in Switzerland at the moment.

I guess they can do what they like seeing as though they have most countries' money somewhere in their coffers and they don't belong to any economic union of any sort.

The only way other countries could influence this is to move their money to another country and I can't see that happening!

I doubt we'd see any Swiss players speaking out against this somehow

:nope:

you're not asking an athlete to have an opinion about something non-sports related??

waste-o-time :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oh, but journalists could in a press conference. Inspirational figures such as Roger Federer could prove to be influential.

In order to speak out against an outrage, you first have to establish exactly what it is that is outrageous.
As far as i can tell the allegations against the SVP poster are that it is xenophobic-this could be the case, but it's possible it isn't the case .
The black sheep on poster could represent the interloper-who is tainted because of their criminal activity-not because of their country of origin.
The SVP made clear it would attempt to change the law regarding migrant perpetrators of crimes, so they and their families could be deported. while we may not agree with this, if this were the case the SVP would still not be guilty of xenophobia.
What is assumed by many critics of the poster is that the black sheep in some way represents all foreigners-of course if that were the case then clearly the designers of the poster and by implication the SVP could quite justifiably be charged with xenophobia.
The problem for accusers of the SVP is the potential ambiguity regarding symbolism of the sheep-they could mean criminals not foreigners.
While the Swiss can legitimately be criticised for many things including a hypersensitivity and political inflexibility regarding migrant workers, the fashionable caricature of Switzerland as some sort of quasi Nazi state is entirely wrong.
Pre war Germany did not have members of groups considered 'undesirable' queuing up to work their country and grumbling about not being acceptable as German nationals-on the contrary Jews and others could not escape the nation in which they were being increasingly persecuted.
The problem today is an unwillingness to absorb and integrate outsiders into Switzerland, not to eliminate them.
While far from perfect (is any nation that?) modern day Switzerland is not the Third Reich, or any way close to it.

Yes. Sarkozy, a second generation migrant, is now president of France and an hardliner politician regarding migrants in France. It is certainly a difficult subject because in theory the frontiers should be open in a perfect world….but it is not a perfect world.

Certainly is a difficult subject, not helped by the fact that many allege racism and xenophobia to stop any debate on immigration, rather than engage in a useful discussion about the practicalities of the subject, which are immense.
My own view on immigration is that i'ld rather a trickle rather than a torrent in terms of the amount we allow into a country (in my case that's the UK)

funny, Canada needs immigrants or our population would decline ;)

Yeah, how ironical can things get. I actually went to the museum of immigration in Paris on Sunday, I heard that Sarko absolutely hates it!

Sarko does scare me a bit. The way he politicized Guy Moquet's final letter was rather perplexing. How the teachers in every single French school were ordered to read it to their students. My History teacher did so to us last week. And my French teacher, who is a fervent Sarko supporter, forced us to learn a poem honouring the French resistants (most notably Guy Moquet) by heart.

Sarkozy is certainly an odd figure i admit, and i think his attempts at forcing historical letters to be read in French schools has proved counter-productive in terms of imparting some idea of national pride-i think France often strains to promote nationalism-it shows a lack of faith in the very idea of France itself.
We in the UK-especially England have generally been frightened to death by the idea of asserting English pride in recent years-often this is associated with extremism, and not the kind of thing middle class liberals could possibly support. Actually some sense of national pride is essential to any idea of the nation state.
But the ideal of dissolved boundaries isn't actually an ideal at all, states and countries are generally about the right size (democratically speaking) for citizens to have some sort of say in the governance of said regime. The UK and France strike me as being pretty good at having a reasonably cohesive populous engaged-and to some extent politically and morally homogeneous (at least to the point where we can function in a liberal, espandistic way)
The USA for example has problems in terms of it's size and the limitations of democracy to represent the people-a problem all big nations have-much of Russia's population are seriously detached from the powers that be in Moscow.
Small is often best.

Ye I don't like him very much....and he 's got his head in Bush' s a$$ and that is a killer for me.

Yes, agreed. Like in tennis, there is an ideal heighth size: not too small and not too tall ;) .

More seriously, leaving in Londn but being foreign I feel that there is more national pride here than in France. Probably due the fact it's an island.

does anyone else see the irony in the newspaper reports that Lewis Hamilton may be relocating to Switzerland?

Rubbish and you know it. Try to be smart and we know you are being a pipe.


I didnt finish the mess you wrote but I know where you are going.


Posters are visual and the message they are sending is nothing but what is seen by the simple man.That is exactly what those dirty disgraceful Nazi descendants were targeting.

Black sheep being kicked out by white sheep......................................

Disgraceful that this still goes on in the world.

ITS RACISM AND DONT TRY TO SUGAR COAT IT.

Why would an athlete interveine, its not their job and they dont even live in our world.

Hi everyone. :D It's true that the SVP's election campaign posters were disgusting and all the ones I saw in the area I live,were quickly defaced or torn.
However,the SVP is not the extreme right-wing party that it is portrayed as being in the British media and is no way akin to the likes of the 'Front National' and the party's leader is not a 'Le Pen'.

As in many countries ,immigration is an issue here and the SVP deliberately played to peoples's fears..

Personally,I would never vote for the SVP,particularly after the posters,but on the whole the Swiss are fairly tolerant and no more racist than other nations...

:bs:

Actually your chairmanship, I believe Todger was spot on. What the hell do you know about Switzerland anyway? A shitload less than Todger I'll wager.

As for me, I've lived in Switzerland all my life. I did NOT vote SVP and they are one of my least favourite parties. Nevertheless the press they have been getting abroad is completely ludicrous. Yes the black sheep can be interpreted as racist but I think they are, at worst, ambiguous.

Most importantly though (and this is what foreigners fail to understand), just because the SVP is the biggest party, that doesn't mean it reigns unchallenged and unchecked. All major parties are represented in government. Certain "prestigous" newspapers *cough*Newyorktimes*cough* hear that a right-wing party is gaining the upper hand in Switzerland, hear about the posters, add a few stereotypes involving Nazi-gold and end up printing a load of complete BS about facism etc.

P.S. Hi everyone :rolleyes: Just heard about Martina so I thought I'd pop in. Saw this thread and got the feeling a few things needed to be clarified (the insides of chairman's skull mostly)

Racism? even detractors of the poster recognise the black sheep represent migrant workers of all nationalities-most foreign workers in Switzerland are Caucasian for God sake (Caucasian means white), how does that make this racism? the Swiss would be deriding themselves, and that would be really stupid-(stupid means not very intelligent, but i'm sure your aware of that)
Might i suggest your facilities of reasoning might be improved say if you read a book, incidentally books are the oblong shaped things you find in book shops and libraries, full of pages-on the pages are printed words-might i suggest Janet and John to begin with, if you have problems with the big words, try breaking them in up, i'm sure you'll soon get the hang of it.

El huegi - how many seats does the SVP hold in government now - last time i checked the 3 major parites held 2, and the SVP had one, has that changed with this election?


Also, the rise of a right-wing populist party in a country in Europe is not exactly a unique event in the last, say, 10 years. Austria had sanctions applied when a far right party was made a junior party in government, and obviously the success of the FN in France is not a big secret. So perhaps, the question should be, why are such parties doing so well in recent years - and one of the answers must be, surely, that they're running on populist campaigns, such as the fear of immigrants. :shrug: and if such campaigns are garnering them success, then perhaps we need to ask why???

In government, the SVP has 2/7 since 2003. NOT awarding them the extra-seat 4 years ago would have been strictly unfair and hypocritical. While they have grown again this time, I doubt the other parties will award them a third. The socialists will probably keep their 2 seats despite heavy losses to the Greens. As for the center, FDP and CVP are now the same strenght and three seats between them. I wonder how that's going to work out.

I think what distinguishes the populists from the rest in modern Europe is the fact that they're not afraid to talk about immigrants. While we might not agree with their solutions, we can't deny that they're at least trying to find some, whereas everyone else just seems to shrug off all attempts in the name of anti-racism.

DJ, i don't think it is really much of a mystery, mass migration is a modern global phenomenon-the right tend on the whole to be more sympathetic to popular disquiet regarding immigration.
Now leaving aside the rights and wrongs of large population influxes, many ordinary citizens have concerns, the concerns (whether justified or not) are often ignored by left wing parties, leaving openings for the right to fill the vacuum-this is the pattern in many European countries. Movements of people around the globe may or may not be in the interest of the host nation, but they do represent a shift from less mobile to a more fluid situation regarding people crossing borders-this brings as many problems as it does solutions.

Cheers EH! :ok:

I think these populist parties are successful 'cos they tap in to the major issues of the day and build their platforms on those. At the moment the major issue seems to be immigration, but I think in the past these parties have run based on anti-EU, anti-corruption policies, as well as tackling major issues like unemployment. I agree with what you're saying though, these parties address such issues when others are scared to - which is why they're becoming more and more successful i think :shrug:

there's people who spend their lives studying this you know, and you've just quite impressively laid it all down in one paragraph :P :ok:

Yeah DJ,
I don't know your nationality, but in the UK it is for the main part the conservatives, but some left wingers too like Frank Field MP a labour politician, has without resorting to racist rhetoric spoken and written very eloquently about some of the unavoidable problems faced by the UK, that are linked to immigration.
I think it's important that the left also avails itself of this subject-rather than closing its eyes and hoping it will go away. Left wing politician Frank Field has grasped this particular nettle and his input i think is very productive from the standpoint ofsomeone who comes from the left. I could site many examples Franks has talked about but he mentions care workers in this country, who could have expected to earn more due to relatively small uptakes in positions for their kind of work, but due to competition from immigrants from eastern Europe this is no longer the case. Now one could balance that argument saying migrant workers provide counterbalancing benefits to our society, but their is still an argument to be had, and i think that thinkers on the left should be open minded and not allow the right to make it their sole political domain.
Interestingly protecting the income of low paid workers was once considered a left wing prerogative, but this this concern seems to be side stepped in favour of some kind of global egalitarianism.

i'm from the UK BT.

I actually quite like Frank Field - he has some very interesting ideas on the welfare state which i like, he's the man who was asked to "think the unthinkable" and then ignored when he did :shrug:

i'll respond to your post in more detail at a later date, the brain isn't working particularly well tonight :ok:

actually i think he was sacked.
Ok mate i'm off to bed anyway-night!

How did I know you were going to resort to the silly comments like that? "Read a book".

Thanks a lot for advise, however, I dont need to read any book trivial books.

Provided, I cant work out my formulae, programme codes that work and study my course, I think I will be fine.

So thank you.

How did I know you were going to resort to the silly comments like that? "Read a book".

Thanks a lot for advise, however, I dont need to read any trivial books.

Provided, I can work out my formulae, programme codes that work and study my course, I think I will be fine.

So thank you.

:) Happy to be of help Chair, i've always felt duty bound to help those less fortunate than myself-i'm just a good Samaritan at heart i guess.

Good posts on the immigration and popular issue parties. :ok: It absolutely annoys me that in thsi country we cannot speak about immigration without being deemed racist. This is stupid as by nto talking about it and supressing feelings, it causes even more resentment among people. These 'extreme" parties give people their onyl way of influencing immigration policy and that is why they are increasing in popularity. Of course that is not necessarily the best way to have yoru say, but what else does the average person who is hacke doff and frsutrated do?

In the area I live, we have an increasing population, putting strain on services like schools, the NHS, housing etc. Whilst immigration si nto the onyl cuase fo this, it is havign a significant effect. Now I personally don't blame the immigrants, they are allowed here so we cannot blame them for coming. Not everyoen sees it like this though and hatred and intolerance brew up as a result. The governement here needs to wake up before it is too late and do something about immigration becuase the current policy is clearly causing both real social and economic problems, not to mention racial tension. I don't think a lot of people who live in less immigrant populated areas fo the Uk realise just what an impact thsi is having. I live near a major airport so I see it first hand.

What makes you fortunate than me?

You are here 24/7 and most likely on the dole and having no intentions of getting out.
Most likely living in a council flat and my dad taxes paying your rent. Maybe the Swiss should start taking a look at your kind of white sheep.

For the moderators, if you feel to remove this post I suggest you look at all other replies of Bigfools too.

Its aways the useless and poor ones who act brassy (the new chav).

You are such a wise lady, unlike the dole king.

BT seems able to defend himself Chairman so I won't remove this post.

to everyone tho, try and keep from throwing personal insults in this thread yeah?

We'll be happy bunnies then. :ok:

......

I thought you left or something, I remember coming here a while ago and everyone was asking of you. Or is it Nick?

Anyway, I wont even reply anymore, the most sensible reply is what Superbrat wrote. Bigwhatever, just sounds like one of these sad people who disturb you on the train for spare cash and tell you immigration is why they are not better of.

Nah, I'm still here. Work away more in the background though these days...

I appreciate your respecting my post :) But what have you got against BT? I think he's an excellent poster. Makes his points well, a reasonable chap. :ok: It's a bit rude insulting him like that don't you think? And you are also insulting people who are unemployed and using council accommodation. They are not all bad you know.