In an attempt to curb the overwhelming number of "enemy" grey squirrels in the British countryside (in comparison with the native reds), the British environmental agency has apparently decided to investigate a form of mass contraception for them!

Do people think this is the right way forward? Or should everybody shoot them on site? Or should we just let them roam free and make the reds extinct? (due to the deadly diseases they pass on)

What kind of deadly disease are they passing on? and who to?

They are a nuisance because every year there are more of them and they are eating all the bulbs and even our lawnmower!!!

Squirrels ate your lawnmower?, either they were giant squirrels or you had a very small lawnmower-was the lawnmower made of acorns perchance?
Giant squirrels can do untold damage, wrecking small villages and killing hundreds of people each year, we have a duty to kill them-all of them-exterminate them at once that's what i say.
However if you did have a very small lawnmower well that's just plain silly, and you deserve to have it eaten.

Im sure its a good case to take to the International court of squirrels rights.

:D

You 'd be surprised! They have almost entirely eaten away the petrol top (no kidding there). Sliced the starter rope, and are now teeting on the cables. :kpow2:

Im sure SB will have something to say on this, she has a few pet squirrels in her garden !

So do I, I think they're cute! :D

But the reds are the natives, the Greys are american, but were introduced a couple of centuries back. The greys carry a disease deadly to reds but not to them.

the red european ones are really cute. The American ones are a bit too active, too grey and too fat. A bit too "ratty" for me.

we've got red squirrels in our garden and lots in the local forest, but I'm in Germany :) It's soo funnny watching the Lexhund trying to catch them when he sees one, they're half way up the tree before he's even reached it, bless, he's a beagle and not built for speed awww.

As to contraception, the Greys as I understand are very successful competitors and it's more that than the disease, although that will undoubtedly have contributed initially as the Greys got a foothold.

I'd hate to see the Reds die out in the UK so contraception would appear to be a good method..

How do they teach the males to use condoms though?

:whistle:

I don't know, maybe there are experts on here...

It's interesting that people seem to prefer the red to the gray, but why? is it an aesthetic thing? is there a moral arguement that would require us to intervene
on behalf of the reds-if there is i'ld be interested to hear it.
Red's are ultimately doomed to extinction or to survive in small tiny enclaves that we humans mark out for them-simply because we feel sorry for them or like the colour or think their indigenous.
Gray squirrels like pigeons and rats are opportunistic and well equipped to take advantage of what is essentially a man made environment here in the UK.
We could intervene on behalf of the reds, but it's merely staving off the inevitable-grey dominance and red extinction. And how can we be sure about the consequences of the intervention?
As for the wanton destruction caused by greys, well nature is 'red in tooth and claw' and sometimes impacts negatively upon us poor humans-rats carry disease, badgers carry disease, bats carry rabies-and lets not even start on foxes!
The fact is if we want a sanitised, environment in which we manipulate wildlife till becomes a utopian view of what humans think nature should be, then we fail because nature is what happens when life finds it's own way.
Nature is not a playground, it is species competing against one another for the right to exist-greys like humans deserve their role in the landscape-they've earned it.

point taken BT, I think the issue here is that the greys were artificially introduced to the UK. They are taking over the natural habitat of the reds and causing a decline in their population.

If it was a natural selection thang from two naturally competing species, both indigenous to the UK then ok, I agree totally with your view.

There was a big discussion about this on The One show. The red squirrels are those native to the UK and are sadly only found in limited locations now - Wales, the North of England, Norfolk, Cumbria, Brownsea Island and the Isle of Wight. This is due to the introduction of the grey squirrel in 1876, purely for amusement. If nothing is done to cull the grey squirrels then unfortunately the red species will die out.
Gives a whole new meaning to immigrants doesnt it!

must be where Sam got the idea from then...

Reaptriate them then, like they d with hedgehogs in that Scottish Isle cos they are eating eggs from a rare bird. Not their fualt, they happen to be there and that si the fodo available.

If some idea of indigenousness makes red squirrels deserving of our protection then there are two questions that must be answered.
1 Why? why is an animal that isn't native to these islands, less deserving than those who are not? nature is not immutable, and nature is not some benevolant agent who acts in the best interest of species-far from it, nature has extinguished millions of species over the millennium-so why do we think we should act in a way that preserves the integrity of nature when nature has no integrity?
Why are species accidentally or intentionally introduced by man less deserving of existence than those who existed prior to the coming of the interlopers?
Simply stating that an animal is indigenous does not mean it is superior, or more deserving of existence than one that isn't.
Indigenous does not mean preferential, it means it is native, so what?

2 If we are to be puritanical about species based on their antecedence
then what about rabbits, Dear, boars, Canada geese even the dormouse? all these and many more introduced by man over the ages. Why are we not even handed when for example geese, boar and rabbits are said to damage the environment.
Natural selection means once a species exists it fights to survive-the fact that man has something to do with the introduction of that species doesn't mean that the newcomer is somehow outside natural selection or the natural order of things-on the contrary whether caused by humans, volcanoes, asteroids or any other force-species have the same right as any other to be considered a part of nature, and to compete for their place in it.

Imagine if greys take over completely and there are no more reds left. Then in the future green squirrels make an appearance-whether introduced by man or nature, and greens seem to be taking over-they greys are losing-in that scenario should greys be preserved?

Great post :D I personally prefer the greys in all respects. I do of course support the reds and am concerned for their survival. As you say the greys are opportunitist and so clever, they kind of deserve it. The greys are not necesarily killing the reds entirely though, you see the reds are not so versatile and resourceful and cannot adapt their eating habits for survival like the greys, so you gotts take yoru hat off to a creare that will feast on a pizza slice and make the most of it rather than get upset when the acorn crop (as it is this year) is poor. And they do - I see squirrels drag whole pieces fo Pizza Hut pizza up my pine tree and they also liek naaan bread. :D I feed them nuts though propely but when they don't have any they show versatility.

The reds are tno a strong species anyway and I doubt you'd se them in your garden anytime soon if we had no greys. IMO teh greys are beign demonised. Read a few papaers form soem experts, as I have, it's not that simple. And it's nto the grey's fault they are her, it is probably mine for feedign them for 10 yrsw. I've had generation eat form my hand and coem when I whistle. They can eb trained, but I have problems with renegades but well worth it.

Sure do! And they have given me such entertainment and delight. And tomorrow ot whenever next on I will give you soem stories abotu them formym 10 yr experince of close contact. They generally visit my house daily, and come in. I'd rathe rhave them come in than the neighbours. And yes I've been bitten burgeld and broke into etc :D I had one called Whitey for four years, never flinched when I went near ti and was so clean tidy and organised. Reliable too and great company in the background.When Whitey stopped turnign up I cried. :(

Anywa I'll eb back on thsi later/

Hi SB,
people don't have a big affection for greys because they are commonplace, ordinary, but they are as remarkable as any other animal and as you say ingenious . I'm one of those rare people who likes rats-they are amazing creatures-obviously their association with disease has a lot to do with it, but that's not the rats fault.
A friend of mine had some rats as pets a few years ago, and they were great characters and made great pets, they never used to bite and were really clever and friendly.

This is actually a very important and interesting question....because it affects us as well ...to some extend. Do we want cleverness, force, efficiency to rule our world..or do we want diverstity, choice and a world who take care of the not-so-strong?

It has to be a mixture of both. We do not want Gap and StarBuck to replace any cloth and coffe shop in the world, do we? I personally find it a pain to see that wherever I go I have the same goods offered to me and going to places where those greats corporations aren't is a breath of fresh air.

We brought this uniformity, we now must fight against it..

Hey Bt :D

Totally agree. I hate this snobbery abotu wildlife. A real lover fo it like me loves them warts and all. But greys are very intelligent and entertaining. Can't see why folk hate them, then again those kidn fo folk kill anything so,,, liek my neighbours, keeps going on abotu birds, my ivy growing up the wall, my tree, it's like give it a break and celebrate the environment and what I do for it you blinkered b&tch! roflmao

I like rats to. My sister had some as pets. They don't all caryy disease at all and fi so, so what? As if half the food we buy doesn't and the hospitals we attend on't.

Anyway BT I am off, sorry but I am cream crackered! And slightly drunk. G'night :hug:

You make a few points, i'm rushed but i'll do my best to address them.

Biodiversity in nature happens when you give nature space and time, it uses it's own rules create whatever marvels it creates. Man's intervention and manipulation of nature invariably leads to a lessening of that diversity. What we need to to is increase the wilderness in this country and nature will do it's own thing-it will create it's own magic
The problem with intervening on behalf of one species or another is that it's a bit like the old lady who swallowed a fly, we compound the problem we don't really deal with it at all. Man made nature isn't nature it's a theme park and i think a that's precisely the kind of artificially created situation you may object to.

As for homogeneity on the high street-all power to anybodies elbow who is against that.

As for force and efficiency ruling the world-that's a big point and could be the subject of another topic, but i certainly wouldn't advocate adopting the rules of nature ie natural selection as a template for how society should be governed.
But how mankind deals with the social situations he finds himself in and how nature governs itself are entirely different paradigms.

It seems strange though to say that if man introduces a species of wildlife, be it animal, bird, insect or fish , intentionally or not, thereby altering the course of nature , that he should not then have the right to reverse or control that if it turns out to be a problem ?

Interestingly in the reds vs. greys debate, in anglesey they have already ruthlessly dealt with the Greys, and now have on Red suirrels there again!

I like the Greys in my garden, they look so cute. But obviously I would think the same of the reds and so certainly don't want them to be run over by some yankee squirrel! roflmao

Of course we could reverse the situation in relation to squirrels, and any other none indigenous animals we so choose, but we have to be clear we are still compunding our pevious intervention.
At this point in time greys have carved out a niche for themselves in our environment-regardless of how the greys got here, they are here and there existence effects more than just the reds-it effects every tree, bush, insect, animals and location in which they are established.
The knock on effect of reducing drastically or eliminating greys could have unforeseen circumstances-greys may compete with other animals like rats or pigeons for example-will there numbers increase due to a decrease in competition from greys? Reds may not be quick to take the place of the greys, and squirrels play a useful role in seed and nut dissemination-acorns for example-oaks depend on squirrels-if reds arn't successful what happens then, do we re-introduce the grey for the benefit of the oak?
Nature has been tamed by man out of all recognition, but however transformed it is, it is still nature-there is no end state in nature, no state of equilibrium or perfection in nature, greys are as much a part of our habitat as oak trees, they may be new to it but they are still part of it.
The key question is this-do we constantly intervene in nature to get a version of nature we prefer or do we try our damnedest to create spaces where nature is left to be herself?
I prefer the latter because if we intervene once why not again, and then again until any wildness is made in our own image -a kind of park, an idealised version of what we think nature is.

Lex where do you live in germany?

I'm in Hessen, about an hour's drive North of Frankfurt WA. It's beautifully rural around here and one of my delights is to walk with the Lexhund in the forest that is literally 10 minutes walk from my house...

my house is circled :)

Looks amazing :) I love Germany, it's where I grew up. We try to go back as often as possible.

whereabouts did you grow up?

Berlin. I was there when the wall came down, pretty unbelievable experience. We were taken by the school to hand flowers to the people coming across. I still have my wall that I took down with my very own hands - none of the bought and sprayed stuff!

Hi - Is Hessen the english equivalent of Essen (close to Dusserldorf)? I used to go in Essen to a trade show every year until it moved to Cologne.

Nope, Hessen is a Bundesland, like an English county. I live near Marburg which about a couple of hours from Cologne and is where the Brothers Grimm studied :)

Its a complex situation as you say,once man has interefered in nature, its not easy to rectify it without further consequences . One other example would be that here in Ireland, pike and roach were introduced from Europe, and the native brown trout has been in serious decline as the food is competed with. Part of the problem is the pollution of rivers and lakes with agricultural run-off, which makes the environment more suitable for the coarse fish and destroys the trouts spawning grounds. But the damage is done, pike are almost impossible to eradicate and reducing the pollution of course is vital for the environment , but by your argument the pike and roach have as much right as trout to be there . There are other factors to consider though such as the benefits to the tourist industry that the reputation of Irelands trout fishing brings .
So yes, I do agree with judicial 'tweaking' of nature - but it should never be more than that and we should fully weigh up the consequences.
Getting back to the grey squirrel , I was under the impression that they destroyed trees by scraping off the bark , unlike the red.

Ah ok.

So what do you do in the fatherland, Lex? (besides watching squirels that is).

Does it smell nice in Cologne?

And is there really a blanket ban on deodrant in Germany?

I work for a large medical diagnostics company as a senior manager in eBusiness. My team is responsible for eCommerce and eBusiness Marketing globally.

attempting to be inflammatory Sam?

nope, but you know the british view surely :P