But then in fairness the Germans can't come back at the english over the war can they? Modern germans owe it to us I suppose.

To be honest I have always felt that Germans and British people are very similar in many ways!

the modern Germans don't really owe us that Sam. If you visited Germany and spoke to them, I think you would find that the modern Germans are as shocked by that episode in their history as others are.

And, typically, the war has been mentioned in a discussion about England and Germany

That is what English folks should stop harping on about.

I agree with pp over the genuine sense of bewilderment that Germans have over that attitude.

Can we move on now please and not have this thread become a war thread?

Thanks

I must say that I find the way that the war seems to be viewed by British fans sometimes - spurred on by the tabloid press, no doubt - to be demeaning to the many victims of that dark period of German (and, in fact, human) history. It's as if the war was just another football match, which is an idea I find nauseating.

Apart from the fact that Britain and the rest of Europe might well have remained in deep trouble without the assistance of the United States. We should just be glad that that nightmare ended when it did.

I agree with much of what you say, Petalp, and I also agree that we could learn much about courtesy and hard work and respect for education from the Germans, but when push comes to shove, and for all our faults, I would not want to much be more like them.

Fortunately (I think) we are historically more questioning of authority and the need fo follow more rigid 'accepted' modes of behaviour than the Germans. It's a cliche, although precisely because there is more of a kernal of truth to it, but we are more difficult to order around than them and rather better at going with the flow and waiting to see what happens.

As one book I read about the Europeans put it (written by a Hungarian) - our relatively more relaxed and casual nature means that we are good at ad-libbing in a crisis, but don't come near us if you want your oven fixed on time and on budget.

Shoot me for saying this, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Hitler took enough Germans with him to get to power with the assistance of the ballot box and successive shares of the vote at general elections of >30%. I am emphatically not saying that is because Germans are (or were) any more naturally or generally anti-semitic etc. than anyone else, but that by nature they were less put off by an obviously authoritarian leader than others before it was too late to do anything about it.

In the UK we had a more anti-authoritarian reaction over the same period including the Public Order Act 1936 banning military uniforms for political parties (admittedly after Hitler became Chancellor), members of the public fought open street battles with Oswald Mosely's Union of Facists, and some people just laughed at them and could not take them seriously - a good example is PG Wodehouse who poked fun at Mosely with his character Roderick Spode, lingerie seller and leader of the blackshorts, in the Code of the Woosters published in 1938. I am not saying it's impossible, but I think it would be more

I say this as someone who is married to a continental European and has many german friends and acquaintances, both in England and abroad.

ps. I am talking in terms of generalities, but only to meet a general statement in the first place.

This could turn into a very interesting discussion or a very nasty one. Let’s just hope for the best.


Even though I understand what you are saying Barry, I don't think many (or probably any) of us are immune to violent crimes and barbaric behaviour when things get tough. Let’s just observe the world around us and realise first what responsibility we have in the mess going on out there. Not many are ready to see, let alone admit, their direct or indirect involvement. In that respect, I prefer not to bother about other people’s evil but concentrate and face mine instead.

MOD NOTE: I've split some of the posts about the war (not very well I don't think, some may not be *entirely* relevant :unsure: ) and put them here.

I'm quite happy for this discussion to continue, so long as it goes the interesting direction rather than the nasty direction :ok:

Those are entirely fair points Tenez. We ought to watch out for specks in our eyes first before worrying about planks in others. That's for sure.

I am not talking about the ability of people, individually or in a crowd, to carry out barbarous acts. Far from it - that is no part of my point.

I am wondering out loud whether there is a different approach (historically) in British and German societies towards uniformity. My suggestion is that the Germans historically (and the Prussians particularly) have been more comfortable with uniformity than us, and have therefore been less spooked by the idea of authoritarian rulers than we have been.

Obviously, that manifests itself in many different ways in different times. A society that embraces uniformity is more likely to observe codes of honour, behaviour and dress than one that does not, and may therefore be (en masse) better and more considerate hosts, more polite to strangeres, and have less crime as a result.

On the other hand, such a society may be more malleable in the hands of an unscrupulous authoritarian leader, enabling him (as Hitler did) to carry a lot of them far enough to get power and then stamp on opposition. Such a society may also be capable of being more judgmental about those who do not adhere to the social norms.

I was not saying that the majority (or even 30%) of Germans thought that extermination camps and starting WWII was a good thing, but that when Hitler's National Socialist Party stood for election his authoritarian approach was well known and not hidden at all but did not put off enough voters or members of the establishment to stop him before it was too late. Mosely, in Britain, did not do nearly so well with either the voters or the establishment.

I am suggesting that this difference may have been linked to differing attitudes towards uniformity and authority in the two societies. I acknowledge that there must havbe been a whole host of other complex reasons too.

Again, I see your point and agree in principle. I do not think we have really assimilated the complex causes and reasons of WW2 and its atrocities. Which is quite scary as it probably puts us at risk again of going through the same hell if not worse.

Sorry Barry, but I'm very sceptical about the idea that different peoples somehow have inherently different mentalities, and that that is what contributed to what happened in the first half of the 20th century.

If anything, I would feel that today people in the UK are more likely to put their trust in authority than Germans are. (Of course I don't want to overly generalize here either myself, as there are also considerable cultural differences within Germany between North-South and East-West, as there are no doubt in the UK.)

Germany was certainly in a different place before the second World War, and there were a number of factors that helped the Nazis' rise to power. Among them were limited experience with democracy, economic turmoil, damaged national pride and a strong army as a separate power within the state. (A lot of these are similar to the post-cold war situation in modern Russia, by the way, although there are naturally also plenty of differences.)

In any case, German society has changed greatly since then, and I do not believe that Germany is somehow more amenable to totalitarian rule. My personal experience is that Germans on the whole are at least as individualistic as British people are. As a simple example, having a school uniform is virtually unheard of in Germany, as it would inhibit pupils' individuality. In fact, a state school *cannot* require a school uniform, as this would go against the right of free development of your individuality, which is a constitutional right in Germany, written into the Grundgesetz after the experiences under Nazi rule. (*Parents* at the school, however, could decide to introduce a school uniform, and I think there have been some experiments in this direction, perhaps based on the British model.)

What I am saying lex when I say they owe it to us is that had Hitler won they certainly wouldn't be like they are now would they?

I thought it was actually very obvious that different people have different mentality.

We, Latin people, are in awe at the way Germans and Brits can line up patiently for a Bus or in front of a cinema. :bow: :P

I'm confused! Is part of thsi thread missing or is it my screen? It just isn't lookign right .and I'm nto sure what it si all abotu as I can't find an opening post..

there was a discussion in the other sports thread which led on to world war 2. i thought it would be best to split the thread so that the war talk was all in one thread, and the football talk in another.

I think different nations have different mentalities, it's a cultural thing. However, not everyone can eb tarred with the same brush or course as everyone is individual, but there is no doubt that national and cultrual characteristics exist and no doubt Germans have a different mentality to the Brits in many ways. And nto that they all share the SAME mentality either, as other social and economic factors will be involved such as religion, class, race, region, age etc.

I'm a bit confused about this thread but I did see something above from Barrystar about Germans in realtion to Hitler managing to rise to power. I'd liek to say that I cannoto disprove that there may have been a mentality present in Germany at the time that enabled this, and that other nations may have resited it more effectivley - you are spot on when you say Hitler woudl nto have had a chance in England - thank God. However I feel ti is much more complex than that. The Germans were in a dire economic slump caused mainly by them being blamed for world war one and having to pay reparations to the Allies for war damages. Germany was a downbeat country desperate for economic prosperity, world power and recognition as were those within it. it was the perfect environment for a a charismatic leader ( a la Weberian theory) to come along and and promise these things and of course get to power. Hitler's early speeches were centred on this, it wasn't all about Jews being the problem and in any case most of the anti-semitism stemmed from the fact that the founding fathers of Communism (great people like Marx, Trotsky for eg) were Jewish and we all knwo Hitler did not like the Communists. If we were in the same boat then maybe we'd have succumbed? And of course in the early days Hitler was not the Hitle rhe became - it took him some years to commit the atrocities he committed, although he was quite quick abotu it in the scheme of things. So mayeb people did nto knwo what they were lettign themselves in for? For elected Thatcher in this country and look what happened there! You can't predict everything. Anyway, Hitler promised greatness and prosperity to a downbeat nation and for the most part he dleivered. People are bound to succumb to that.

Anyway Hitler was pandered to by other nations, when he first came to power he was tno viewed as the root fo all evil in England and other wordl leaders were his allies. They are as much to blame and many historians blame the Allies - America, Britain, France and so on, - who enforced repartaions at the Treaty of Versailles on Germany. Now what was the point in that? The country could not pay and was in dire straits after the war just like everyone else. So makign things worse provided the perfect circumstances for an opportunist, whcih hitler was, to thrive.

Hope that makes sense.

Oh I see, thanks for explaining Jo :) How does footie lead to WW2? Hmm, let me guess ......... :rolleyes:

Ask Petalp!

I said on the other thread though that England vs. Germany is in fact a very rich football rivalry too, especially in modern times, and that is probably more at the forefront of most england fans minds rather than the War background!

Well who knows what the world would be like now? We could have had 5 mad world dominators by now, or a revolution or whatever but it is true say that had Hitler won the war then the world post war would have been a very different place to what it actually was. And anyone who was spared further atrocities from Hitler should IMO also be grateful to those who helped to eradicate him and his evil machine. If they don't feel that way then fine, but I am certainly grateful to those who fought to keep Fascism out of England and I hate ti when I meet these ignorant kids who have no idea abotu what might have happened if Hitler had nto been stopped.

Sad, but you are probably right. And the England v Argentina rivalry is the same, partly cos of the Falklands war, but mainyl cos of Maradonna and his hand of God! roflmao

Is it true that many British kids do not learn about post-war History? Pardon me if I am gravely mistaken, cos that would be rather shocking to me.

What Germans are these that so patiently queue? :P And even the British are no good at queuing if you compare them to the Japanese. roflmao

I do not deny that there are differences in cultures/societies, but these are things that change over time; that's what I was trying to point out. And in my opinion German society has changed immensely over the past century. And my feeling is that the same is true for most societies, if perhaps not for all in the same degree.

What worries me is that sometimes people try to attach certain mentality to a people, rather than to a given society. Also, even given cultural differences, I believe that there is more in human behavior (good and bad) that unites us, rather than separates us.

But in any case, this is a tennis board and I think I will get back to discussions of tennis instead. :)

And therefore modern Brits and Germans are on the "same" side.

I'd just like to look at this next clip in terms of the special rivalry england and germany have in football:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=R28jgryO764

I thought this was funny myself!

Sam, hun - do you think this might be a bit better off in the discussion about football rather than the war one??? :unsure:

I really think that is a pointless supposition Sam, no one can possibly know. I really think that sort of argument should be left well alone.

Not being funny guys, but having been out and returned to see the thread, regardless of how simplistic Sam's suppositions may be, I find the mod intervention rather stifling. The thread may be pointless, i don't really know and i don't really care, and I don't even know how it started, but it's a chat board and I don't think anyone has said anything outrageous that can't be resolved through discussion. I myself left the thread purposely because I feared I was treading on egg shells and I don't enjoy that feeling. I've seen worse things said and discussed as should be the case. And as I am not really enjoying this I shall be off now.

sorry you feel that way SB

My posts have been from me, not from me wearing my mod hat. This thread started as a result of one of my threads about sportsmanship going off topic. I wasn't keen on seeing that thread descending into a 'two world wars and one world cup' discussion and wanted to keep it on track.

The thread was split as it seemed as though a discussion on the war might have been interesting, but Sam's premise that we are 'owed' something by modern day Germany because they would have been different if they'd have won??

Sorry hun, I live in Germany and some of my very best friends are German, one of whose father was an ss officer. She had to deal with her 17 year old daughter asking how she could love her father after what he had done..

Even if I wasn't admin, I would still have told Sam his comment was argumentative and pointless

No Lex, you've taken the wrong angle there.

Modern germans I would hope believed in what the Allies were fighting for, not what the Nazis were.

SB is totally right anyway - I can't understand how the hell we've gone from a fantastic piece of sportsmanship from Leicester City football club on tuesday night to a world war thread. I have a pretty firm idea who is responsible

And I certainly don't agree with the argumentative and pointless comment you have just made about me.

Why don't you all chase after me, go for it, kick a man when he's down. You all have blood on your hands if you are going to continue hounding me.

You know what i've been through, and am still going through to a degree. But you don't care.

Hey Sam fella,.. just take a step back here, from what I can read of Lex's post he is making a remark about your post, nothing personal about you.
In much the same way that you say your posts that are a lot more forward than this should be taken about many posters on here, including your remarks towards PP yesterday.
Don't over react to this.. just a normal discussion isn't it? :shrug:

I see that Sam has been busy pointing the finger again. meh.

And once again, I brought up the aspect of the '2 world wars, one world cup' because that is what English supporters sing NOW.. and as I've said on the other thread, you seem to have this notion that the rivalry is purely a sporting one..

Sporting rivalries often have some other aspects to it. It is inevitable. However, this is one aspect of the England Germany rivalry that I wish didn't exist, as it is extremely tactless and misinformed. and yes SB, I did also mention the Falklands war aspect too..

Speaking of misinformed, Sam, I am baffled as to how you speak so eloquently for modern Germany and yet seem dismissive of the thoughts of Lex (who lives there!), and MJT who is German.

Barrystar, lots of really interesting points too. I just wish to qualify my thoughts about wishing that the British were more like the Germans. This comment was really made in terms of certain aspects of their cultural psyche, rather than taking on their identity wholesale!

In terms of cultural identity and history, I'd also argue that the British can be as equally deferential towards authority as Germany. During WW2 the home front in the UK were all given guns. After WW2 the government asked for the guns to be returned. And the people did just that. I recall speaking to a few people about this from other countries saying that their governments would have been less forthcoming about issuing guns to people residing in the country during the war, for fear of them instigating a revolution. But no danger of that in Britain.. the people dutifully did as they were told.. a trait admired by the people that I spoke to, as it happens, but does also fall into that deference category.

No doubt German society has changed since WWII - so too has British Society.

I am flying a bit of a kite, because all I have to go on is a bit of history, a bit of anecdotal evidence (my wife worked in Germany), some well-worn cliches, and my experience of the German people I know well and those I have met, as well as the circle of English people I move in and what I read and experience about Britain living here.

My experience of the Germans I know is definitely that they adhere more rigidly to standards of 'normal' social behaviour than the English people I know, and that they are less relaxed about those who are outside those norms - extending to matters of dress, formal modes of addres (Dr, for example), protocol, and more general behaviour.

That's all I can say really.

Whether the people I am talking about are representative of differences between Germans and English as a whole, I cannot say.

I don't speak for modern Germany, just stating that they aren't Nazis now! (or I would hope not :rolleyes: )

The England Germany rivalry is largely founded on the football history, and so is the Argentina one. Ever seen Maradona's hand of god goal? That's what most england football fans remember!

What about cricket then Petalp then, with the Ashes? Us and the Aussies exchange banter like crazy. People from the barmy army go over there dressed as convicts! roflmao

A one-eyed view on proceedings. once again.

England v Argentina? Read about what maradona said about that match. He said that it was about revenge for the Malvinas. All of the Aegentinian playesrs agreed that in the dressing room about the match. People in Argentina viewed it the same way.

England v Germany largely about football? The english supporters chants seem to say otherwise :rolleyes:

You really can't get that into you head, can you??

The ashes? exchanging banter? of course that's different. I don't know where you're coming from there, as that has nothing to do with this. Banter is fine in sport. But when it's not received as banter by the other side then you're on dicey ground. And i'd hardly call banging on about the wars as "banter".

Sam, that is exactly the crass remark I am talking about

Please become more informed about modern German attitudes to the 2nd World War before you come out with these remarks!

Well they aren't i hope!

The convicts thing is pretty distasteful in many ways, get off your soapbox against football!

And the football rivalries are still huge football rivalries!

Petalp, am sorry but I think Sam has a point.

England Germany matches have a history of their own now totally seperate from the war. If some sections of fans want to sing about the war then shame on them. The majority of football fans see the rivalry as going back to 1966 continued on to 1970, 1990 and 1996 and so on.... Likewise with England Argentina (matches in1986,1998, 2002). Don't let a minority of fans overshadow that and judge the football matches and all of the fans the same way.

ok guys!

Let's call time on this and take a step back and chill

This thread was started as a breakaway to discuss the war and not to use it as an opportunity to have ago at each other or other nationalities.

If it continues, then I'll close the thread

That is an excellent statement. The majority of football fans are good people, and deserve better than to be tarred with the hooligan brush.

Nope.. you still haven't defended Football convincingly..

Go back to the football thread, and see if you can write something as you've written nothing to convince me so far.. and I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

Convicts.. hmm.. well, it's just nonsense, and such small stuff that it's barely on the scale in terms of what is said at Ashes cricket matches, quite frankly. And dressing up as convicts..? More guys dress as nuns, elvis, the pope, schoolgirls..