I watched his match with Ferrer twice.What a match.I cant help but ask is it over for him.He was battling with his legs then it was cramps in his hand.His strapping was coming off on his knees it was a worrysome site and I not being a Nadal fan was really heartsore for this kid.I kinda have now grown to like him and I dont think its nice that he is battling with these injuries.

Ferrer on the other hand played superb.I have never seen him play like that.Full marks to him.

C'mon Dark - it's not 'over' for Nadal on the strength of that loss anymore than it was for Fed at Indian Wells or Miami.

It may be a symptom of his having to battle to be as good on hard as he is on clay, in which battle he may ultimately prove unsuccessful. Each passing year does tend to reduce confidence in his ability to establish himself as an all-court great, rather than a clay great and an extremely good all-court player - not least because of the improvement of the likes of Djokovic. However, he remains young and at the moment any fair jury is out.

Remember the beginning of this year with all sorts of doom gloom and despair being forecast for him, when those of us who said "wait for the clay season" were pilloried?

I say wait and see if he can recover his fitness this year and, if not, wait for the Aus Open and then the Clay season in 2008. I do agree that if he is to spread his tentacles away from clay he needs to do so in the next year or two, otherwise his game may grind him down or others may overtake him - but "Over"? Not at the moment, nothing like. And even if he can only carry on being a clay great, it's hardly 'over'.

I think Darky's concern is to see someone so young having recurring joints injuries. It does make you wonder whether he'll be able to sustain long injury free patches on HC?

Does anyone remember Kent Carlsson?

The very essence of this tells me that you yourself have resided to the fact that he is only a great claycourter but you dont wantto admit it.Its the same like last year.Everyone kept saying wait till the clay and what did he do,what we all knew he would.I just want him to perform all year not seasonal.

Tenez once again you get me spot on! :ok:

no, i don't think it's over. I reckon he'll win at least 3 more RG titles and will remain a top 3 player for a few more years.
Having said that; i'm not sure he'll ever equal 2005 (imo his best year overall). In that year he won straight after Wimbledon 2 MC titles + Stuttgart, Bastad, Beijing.
Ironically it was an injury that finally stopped him..

3 more FO??? I find this a huge task....even for Rafa!

I can see him winning it once or twice at best plus one AO or 2 ....at the very best.

I think the point is, Rafa has made it known that he wants to be remembered as a great all-around player, not just a great claycourter. He's still young, so I'm not ready to say it's all over for him in that respect, but this repeating pattern of being worn out and injured by the US Open is troubling for him.

I really hope he does win another slam outside of RG at some point. He really is an outstanding player, and I think he deserves a little more than RG in his legacy. I'd like to see him take it easy somewhat following this USO and perhaps focus on being in top condition for the Aussie. He's still right there with Fed in YTD points, though, so that lure of battling for the No. 1 ranking might keep him fighting in the rest of the season.

Well, as long as he doesn't sacrifice too much to become no.1 (which can be said of this open) he will be able to do it. There's aren't too many clay specialist this era, are there?

I think there are plenty of great clay players actually. Guys like Davydenko, Hewitt, Federer, Ferrer, Djokovic, but also maybe many others upcoming players (Del Porto, Gulbis etc.) can exploit a slight drop of form from Nadal.

....and imagine a Final on a cloudy, wet day against Federer.... ;)

Rafa is a great player and we all know how he's been coping with injuries.He is still very young and I reckon he'll be close to winning both the RG and wimbey next year...

I actually think that all those (or the very few should we say) that have won those HC GSs since Nadal has been a contender, have been very worthy champions. In that respect, I do not think Nadal "deserves" one more so than let's say Davydenko, Blake or Hewitt for instance.

that's the point; the players you're mentioning are more like "all court" players then clay specialists. In fact; they are all better on other courts than clay.
So the "former specialists" (ferrer, ferrero, gonzales, moya) have become HC players, the "clay talents" (almagro, Monfils) never really break through and the former greats (Canas, Guerten, Andreev) got suspended or are constantly being injured... :shrug:

Definitely no claycourt specialists era..My bet's on Rafa winning 6 RG titles

I gave up on that cloudy wet day.. ;)

My intent in saying that he "deserved" it was really just to say that I think he's a worthy champion on surfaces other than clay, and I'd like to see him capture one of the other slams. I wasn't insinuating that he was more or less worthy than any other players.

Having said that, though, Nadal has achieved more than the players you mentioned in the biggest non-clay events. As much as I like Blake, he's done virtually nothing in the slams and has been runner-up to Fed a couple times in HC Masters. Davydenko has one maters title and has been a regular quarterfinalist at the AO, plus SF last year at USO. Hewitt did have some close calls in '04 and '05, but nothing much recently.

Nadal, from 2005 forward, is twice Wimbledon runner-up and has a QF appearance in both USO and AO, plus three HC masters.

Like you Dark, i've warmed to Nadal a little-especially his Wimbledon performance.
I thought Nadal could be having serious fitness problems by this years clay season -i was wrong, but i'ld still take the same bet for next year-i could get it wrong again, but his game is just so physical -it's hard not too see him pushing his body too far at some stage.
This is why comparisons with Borg and Nadal are so absurd-you look at borg and as Tennez recently pointed out he looked so 'human' compared to players of today like Nadal-it's a whole different game-pushing the body to the limit all the time.
What we see now could be the beginning of the end, or not, but it's certainly not wild to imagine it could be.

One thing Nick is that Nadal being so good on clay allows him to be on the opposite side of Federer's draw and therefore has had more chance to perform better than the rest on Hard as well. But despite that Davydenko has done consistantly better than Nadal on the USO and AO over the last 3 years. Blake got the better of Nadal at the USO and has a better H2H on hard while Hewitt has actually won the USO and went to the final once, though I agree this last one is probably not as good as Nadal ATM.

well for what it's worth I always have felt that Nadal's game would catch up with him pretty quickly...

I must say that I agree with this except the yeard end number 1 thing.Federer will be number 1 thats for sure.

I simply cant see him winning another slam outside of RG especially with Djoko coming up and coming up so fast.Either he will have to have a cake walk draw or all those who bash him sensless on the hardcourts will have to be injured or on opposite ends of the draw.Australia stands his lone chance but then again he playeed really well at Wimbledon but Djoko retired so we will never know if he would beaten Novak.

Its really sad though that he is injured like this every year after Wimbers! :(

I thought this quote digged out by Dinky would be pretty relevant here.

"Q. What are your thoughts on Nadal not being here?
ROGER FEDERER: Well, honestly it was sad to see the way he was fighting with his body last night. I mean, I felt for the guy. I never saw him go down like this physically. I mean, he sat down. I don't know what happened.
I mean, I played him in Miami in the finals when I beat him 6-1 in the fifth, and he was really struggling there physically. So it was kind of the second time for me to see him really struggling out there.
But you've got to give credit to Ferrer. He played unbelievable. I know he can play well. He's the best returner in the game at the moment, together with Nadal I think. I mean, it was still entertaining. I have to give also great credit to Rafa the way he swallowed it all, tried extremely hard. I was very impressed. I really liked to see that. "

I am not sure whether Federer refers to Nadal's exhaustion or injuries or probably both. The reference to his Miami match over 5 sets makes me think its the former. While what I saw was more to do with the knees injuries.

However, I have always argued that Nadal's most significant weakness was, against common belief, his stamina. His O2 consuming muscles make him drop rather quickly in intensity towards the end of long matches which also explains his long time recuperation between points. Interesting.

I woudl really like to see how he recovers in Madrid and Paris. Interesting end of season for sure as Djoko is going to be in the mix more than we woudl have thought!

I knew it would be relevant somewhere :P

I am with greasepipe here I think it's not over and he will bag 2-3 more RG Titles and perhaps 1-2 Wimbledon titles (he wasn't too far away this year) before his career is over.

I think his body is going to fall apart these next couple of years myself, and that's basically what he wins RG with.

The reason I am sceptical about 2/3 more RGs is that he needs to be 100% fit for that and at the same time time other young guys are getting closer to him on clay. I believe he can win it again of course and coul dwin other GSs too but the game is still becoming faster and I am not sure his legs move faster. In short, I believe something similar to Hewitt's fate could easily happen.

I see your point actually. But also I think Nadal has shown he has a good enough game to adapt to the faster surface at SW19 so I would hope he could adapt that to a faster game on the clay surface. I guess the next year or two will show us all what Nadal's long term success will offer.

Agreedand with his type of game its all about his movement and legs and his legs are the things that is falling apart first! :(

I agree, but Borg is certain he'll win Wimbledon next year .
I wouldnt write Roger off just yet though , maybe Borg doesnt want his record to be broken

And Roger is gunning for Petes 7 so it will be quite interesting!But if Nadal isnt fit dont bet on it.And with Novak in the picture,lets speculate that he will be ranked lower,where would he meet Federer in the draw and where will he meet Novak.I was always under the impression that Novak would have beaten Nadal at this years Wimbers but alas he was injured!