I am sure we have had some similar threads about those two players in the past but I have not seen any recently despite the game and the players’ respective S&W changing constantly. Also, the arrival of new players like Djokovic or confirmation of Davydenko, for instance, changes the bar constantly and has helped highlighting those S&W in Roger and Rafa.
Therefore on this thread, we should probably include Djokovic as he is probably going to be pretty close to the top 2 by the end of the season. Feel free to list S&W of other players you think are going to threaten the hierarchy at the very top.

Discuss…..

A very good post Tenez ;) and a difficult one..this is why it take some time before writing down something. Said all that I will concentrate today, only, merely on FED S&W (it is simply a question of priority I am a big fun of this guy so let's start with him). The system is simple..Max =10 min =0

1) First serve: Well after the final at Wimbledon it is tenting to give a 9..But on an overall I will say 81/2..there are days in which his first serve is snot so great. Anyway, the 81/2 is more for the technique, it is so well disguise, so difficult to read more that its consistency (Once again , Wimbledon this year was quite exceptional)..in any case it is a big weapon: it opens well the court when the opponent catch it and every often the opponent is obliged to send back a short ball.. :P ..and we know what happens to these short balls most of the time..right.. roflmao

2) second serve: In my sense under evaluated..It has plenty of kick..I like it and most of the time is very efficient (in a no day of a first ball the man is able to win playing second serve after second serve)..I like it..definitely a 81/2 :bow:

3) FH...Too easy: Just great..During this season it seems to fail a bit..But then suddenly it is back to the very high standard..This shot is just perfect: Difficult to read with an enormous racquet speed..Glorious: FED is already part of the tennis history thanks to this shot IMO...Please review in whatever motion you want: The first set of the USO final against Hewitt (the man is still searching some balls) and the 6 game on the final set at the Wimbledon final 2007..even Rafa was out of his mind after that game. :bow: thanks Good I saw this man playing this shot :bow:

Overall ranking = 10 :yikes: :yikes:

4) BH..It has improved and a lot and needs to be divided:
Slice BH: One of the best ever in y opinion..Sometime he does no use it enough (in particular against Rafa) when sometime he plays most of the time this shot: it is a pleasure to see how he can kill AROD with this shot...( I will say 9)..The deep BH, with pace..well it is good and it is quite precise given that it is a one Hand BH..still, compare to Gasquet his timing is not always optimal and I have the feeling he is the shot that generates more doubts on his mind (when I have to use it? how?..)..Still, overall ranking = 8 :unsure:

5) At the net..Volley..I think the man is a very good player on that side to..Still, he would be even better if he would come to the net more often and playing more often there..He can do fantastic volleys but at the same time he can miss some "easy" ones..See the end of the third set at the Wimbledon final this year for the great ones..Amazing... and then his first two serve games in the fourth set..He missed two volleys..AHHHH..Due to this I will say..71/2 :yikes: ..i.e. less than his BH..Because this last one is obliged to expose and use more often so... :whistle:

Here it is my first contribution..I guess there is a lot of mistakes..but I hope is clear..

Ciao :rolleyes:

Rafa's volleys have improved immensely.

However, whilst his backhand volleys are generally very solid, his forehand volleying is certainly more fragile. My guess is that this is something to do with his racquet grip.

He can also shank more forcing forehand shots, when the ball is mid-court and he is looking to hit the corner of the court down the line and maybe finish off with a volley..

His backhand is pretty much flawless in terms of penetration of shots and low incidence of errors.

6) Where I have my head..

Last element for today..court coverage..And defensive game...Come on Great..Exceptional..Let's say 9

Finally, I will add his main strength in this part of the game: his ability to get first serves back in play with low, blocked return that negates the opponent's advantage..Ask the long list of poor (great) first serve players ( ArOD in top poor guy :( ) who saw plenty of their first serve back quite deep on the court.... :P :P

You are spot on TV. You know your man obviously. I tend to think that his BH is getting more and more overated though. It was pretty good at the time but when compared to the ease at which Djoko can open the court when facing Nadal, I feel Federer is really missing out on the double HBH more and more.

I will try to discuss this further when I have more time.

petalp :ok: Great spot..still, I do not agree fully..

It is on a back hand volley not really so well executed that Rafa gave the 0-30 point in the 6 games of the final at Wimbledon...Rafa has improved on volley skills but i will not put his BH volley at a different level than his FH volley IMO....

IMO for Rafa it is valid the same remark than for FED: He would be able to volley better if he would move more often to the net..he has the skill and the touch..He needs to practice more

In any case I agree with all the rest... :) :)

Ciao :rolleyes:

To me Nadal's FH has now overcome Federer's on clay and possibly grass too (at least when facing each other). Nadal's high trajectory and high bounces force the opponent to cover more ground from th e baseline but while in the past it had more spin than depth, now it s simply awsome in terms power. It has a dose of spin only him can deliver due to its high finishing of the arm but now has the power (speed) Federer used to deliver. This makes it now the best on grass and clay.

I might surprise many with the following but I think Rafa's weakness is his stamina. His style is not energy efficient and with some fatigue his precision and length of shots drop. His long recovery time between points is not so much about upsetting his partner but more a real need to allow his muscles to pump some O2. Despite winning Rome v Federer and a great 5 setter versus Coria in MC?, he was in both occasions the first to falter and only came through through sheer fighting spirit and ...wasted opportunities from his opponents. Federer probably knows now that over 5 sets he might now be the favourite. '

I wouldn't underestimate Federer's backhand. It may not have the pace of Djoko's, but using the one hand is what allows him to vary between topspin and slice so well. Apart from Fabrice Santoro there isn't a single doublehanded backhand with a truly piercing slice.

Fed's game is about getting the short ball on his FH. The excellent variation on his BH allows him to get into this postion.

The combination of slice and topspin is also part of another one-two he uses often: luring your opponent in with a short, low slice and passing with the topspin.

Very good remarks scvangils :ok: (as often).This is why if we want compare FED BH we need to take another major single hand BH, i.e. in my opinion Gasquet... :P

And then we will discover that FED's BH is still more "flexible" that the one of the young (still progressing) French, why? Because you have this fantastic slice BH which is still not yet at the same level in the Gasquet game...

(Nevertheless it is open to a debate whether in a A Gasquet day, i.e. against AROD in Wimbledon this year, owns a better with peace BH than FED)...

In any case, Gasquet will have (and has) the same problems than FED on clay against Rafa and Rafa is using exactly the same strategy against him (please have a look to the 2005 match between the two at RG to see the spanierd reaching the same result against Gasquet than against FED)..

So, it is more, IMO, the Rafa huge spin on clay that Rafa is able to produce that is troubling single hand BH players and this more than a structural failure of this shot by Gasquet and FED IMO...

:rolleyes:

Good point, i have thought much the same myself-esp the bit about the delays between points-giving rafa time to recover. Also Fed seems very strong on endurance and usually looks about the same at the end of five as he does at the start of the match.

I think mentally Fed can be wanting a little-i certainly don't mean he's weak as such, but i think the pressure in the French and Wimbledon finals hampered him a little. Having said that he seems mentally strong most of the time against nearly all the players. So it's all relative

Fed's BH is beautiful, no question about it. He is also extremely talented so has a great touch and can place the ball wherever he wants and his BH benefits from this magic touch. But in a match situation, players need to be able to have a consistant, powerful one and unfortunately it doesn't allow him to hold his ground versus Nadal and other players who use lot of top spin, let alone to harm them and has to rely on the other strengths to mke up for it. He is clearly at a disadvantage there compared to other players who have a more powerful BH. I mentioned Djoko but there are many players like Del Porto or Davydenko who could really open the court even on clay because their basic BH comes with more pace and consistency than Federer. I think we discussed that in the past, and some other one HBH players like Youzhny, Djoko can hit flatter and pacier and that makes a big difference against Nadal cause suddenly he has to be prepared to cover more ground and is simply more vulnerable. But against Fed, he knows he can retrieve almost any shot coming from his BH (even the slice) and that forces Federer to rally against nadal more than he would like to. Just knowing that your opponent can create angle and power with the BH is already a huge advantage to have. Nadal feels very safe when he plays Fed's BH. Fed never feels safe when playing either of Nadal's sides. If Fed had a flatter BH, I am quite convinced he would hardly ever lose v Nadal. The problem is having consistency with it and that is extremely difficult.

It is true than on HC, his BH is quite steady and penetrating but the rest of the time, it is not. And the very nice shots that do come out of it are not the bread and butter needed for him to stay ahead of the pack.

Thanks, TV. We also shouldn't forget that only one man has beaten Rafa on clay this year and that's Fed. The guys with the big double-handers don't stand a chance as well. Unless you're a lefty you're always going to have trouble with Rafa's forehand on clay.

Also, as a comparison between Fed and Rafa:

Although Rafa and Fed both have amzing speed and footwork, they are very different in that department as well.

Rafa is a typical explosive mover: he can change direction very quickly and can, simply said, run very, very fast because of the power in his legs.

Fed's way of moving is not as explosive: he may run pretty quickly as well, but his strength lies much more in anticipation ( "seeing the ball", "reading the game"). It's almost impossible to really surprise Fed. He almost seems to slow down time, as can be judged by a few of his absurd overhead-recovery-winners. In other words, he doesn't need to change direction that much.

Because of these different styles of moving Nadal is always going to put more strain on his legs as well as his arms. I seriously fear for Nadal if he comes into the hardcourt season already nursing a slight injury to his knee. Fed's absurd succes rate over the last few years can for a great part be contributed to having remained almost injury-free (similar to Lendl in 80's and Connors in the 70's).