The doubters said last year he only made the final thanks to an easy draw. The doubters said this year he would never make the final having to face Youznhy, Berdych and Djokovic to get there. Now on the verge of beating Djoko, surely everyone has to admit, Nadal is the second best grasscourt player in the world

I know, even the haters will have to give him a break after this huge effort! :bow:

The guy is incredible, and i hope he does himself justice in the final :ok:

I'm not sure I would go so far as to say that Nadal is necessarily the second best grasscourt player in the world. There were a number of times he could've gone out of this tournament --- that he didn't do so is, imho, mainly because he's a great fighter and a champion, not necessarily because of any particular grasscourt skills.

The fact is, he's a fighter, and he's an excellent tennis player. The difference between grass courts and other courts isn't as big anymore as people seem to think. Which is why I always had Nadal in with a chance to reach the final, both this year and last (when even fewer people would have believed it).

And there is always a chance that he can trouble Fed --- though I certainly hope not!

I agree with MJT. I think whether he's the second best grass court player in the world or not is a slightly different issue as to whether he is Federer's biggest threat on grass or not.

I knew he would get to the final again, he has so much will, and can at least challenge Federer to some degree I would imagine :)

maybe im taking too simplistic a view, but if hes beating the players that ARE considered the best grass players, then surely he is better than them on grass, and therefore second best to Fed :shrug:

He has not convinced me that he is better than Djoko or Youzhny on grass. If anything this wimbledon convinced me of the contrary. Woudl you consider Soderling a close third on grass?

:whistle:

But hey well done to him....tomorrow will tell us much more. One think we know is he is a great fighter.

If hes not better, why did he win?

Because he won more sets. :doh:

A player can have a day when they could barely hit the back of a bus. Being a Mary fan, surely you've seen her lose to players which you would believe not to be a better player than her, no? Or maybe an injury can impede a player?

But whatever, throw objectivity out of the window if you like. But don't expect a coherent debate if bias clouds the issue.

I'm not sure you can say that - we need to wait until the final has finished before we pass judgement. I think Nadal will win today, in which case he's the best grass courter, not the second best.

If he loses though, of course he's still second best. He's reached the final two years in a row now, and despite the comical backtracking on his draw from certain quarters, this year is clearly proof that last year was no fluke.

Ignoring the results and taking an objective stance, I think that Gasquet is the best current grass courter, followed by Federer, then Nadal, but until Gasquet puts the results on the table, Nadal will remain where he is. I'd say Djokovic is potentially a better grass courter than Nadal too, but we'll have to wait and see.

If you were truly objective then you would take into account a 50+ match winning streak on grass. But then again, you can't help being affected by your usual bias. ;)

To say that Gasquet is currently the best player on grass is very short-sighted. He lost at Nottingham, too, remember. He did play well at SW19, but he was beaten by the better player yesterday, and even at his Friday level of play Fed would still have beaten him. It still took him 5 sets to beat Roddick (who by your opinion is useless), so your logic doesn't add up, does it?

:lol: I meant subjective, not objective. Don't let the slightly more accurate typing fool you, I'm still far from sober. ;)

It's not clear-cut to me that Nadal is a better grasscourt player than e.g. Roddick or Gasquet (at least if the Frenchman plays the way he did against Roddick). Also, it's not completely clear to me whether Nadal would have won against Youzhny or Djokovic if they had been fully fit.

Of course, there's a question what it means to be "a good grasscourt player". I mean, Nadal basically is a threat against anyone on any surface, particularly over five sets, just because he is extremely fit and fiercely competitive. This, imo, has more to do with reaching the final (particularly this year) than his game being particularly suited to grass. I don't mean this to be anything negative, I've always defended him against the naysayers. I'm just trying to have a sensible discussion here.

In any case, one match doesn't mean much either way. Fed beating him in Hamburg didn't suddenly make Roger the best claycourter; even winning RG wouldn't necessarily have meant that. That's just the way things are in tennis.

So even if Nadal *did* win today --- which I don't think is likely, and which I hope he won't :pray: --- Fed would still be the best grasscourter in my mind.

i have always admitted ignorance where the ATP is concerned. I was hoping this thread would lead to more ATP minded players giving me an insight into Rafas grass status, but as usual on this board, its just people looking to get on their high horses and have a go at posters they feel are less knowledgeable. No wonder CC is going to the dogs

Where is someone accusing anyone of being less knowledgeable, Liam?

For example, when I replied to your post, I actually used an example of WTA to highlight my point.

Also, saying who is second best on grass is likely to be subjective.

Rafa has reached 2 consecutive wimbledon finals. Counts for a lot.

But then again, Gasquet has won nottingham two years in a row and it has taken Federer to stop him, both this year and last year.

so, scope for debate.

Interesting thought re: CC going to the dogs. Can I ask in which ways in your opinion?

????

I certainly don't think I've gotten on any kind of high horse, and just stated things as I see them.

In my opinion, Fed and Nadal are simply great tennis players, in with a good chance to win any tournament they enter, be it on hard, grass or clay.

With respect to playing on grass courts in particular, I would say Fed is in a class of his own, and there are a number of people behind him, each of whom has certain weaknesses and strengths which make them be among the favorites on this surface. I would include Roddick, Gasquet and Nadal in this group, and probably also Djokovic given his performance here. Hewitt might also be still in it, at least when he's fit and playing well. Perhaps also Murray, but it's hard to say since we haven't seen him play on grass this year. I would probably still pick Roddick over Nadal on a grass court, though we haven't seen that match yet and will have to wait at least another year (if we get to see it at all). Gasquet is a difficult one --- when playing well, I would put him above either of them, but given his inconsistency so far, I would rank him lower. If he can keep playing and fighting like he did against Roddick, though, there's no reason he couldn't be my #2 grasscourt player next year.

I thought already last year, and it seems confirmed this year, that Nadal is actually better on grass than he is on hardcourts. Perhaps because grass, which is traditionally considered a 'fast' surface, actually plays quite a bit slower than fast hardcourts these days, and Rafa can still chase down a lot of balls. What do others think?

I'm not sure about Rafa being the second best grass player after Federer. I'm unsure as to what the outcome would have been against a fully fit Djokovic would have been.
Also, a Roddick vs Nadal match up would have necessarily been a foregone conclusion, and Gasquet has proved to me he's up there with the better grasscourt players.

Nadals style of playing-to grind opponents down-could use some variation to cement any status as grasscourt no.2. He gets through on strength that he's a warrior; I don't believe his draw really tested him, and I would have really liked to have seen a fit Novak take the game to him, for exactly that reason.

That said, Nadal is certainly not one dimensional, and has proved he's not a "one surface" wonder. I was saying last year that it was unfair to write him off as Roland Garros and not much else, he's consistenly proving that he and Federer still rule the roost. The pair of them are awe inspiring.

MJT, Sara, excellent posts!!

Rafa deserves a great deal of kudos for being in RG and SW19 finals for two years in a row now. As has Federer.

Just that it's less clear-cut about whether Rafa is the second best, and it's been interesting to read people's thoughts on this in this thread.

Liam. You're a fan of WTA, and on this front CC has declined. Is this what you mean? I mean, the WTA folk hardly seem to post here anymore, and CC has become a more ATP dominated board than ever imo.

Still pondering on Rafa!

His groundstrokes are incredible - it's the depth that keeps his opponents pinned to the baseline, and ultimately what tires them out.

Good point.

Rafa is the iron man, never seems to get tired in a match. Iron will too..


Djoko has the iron will power too though.. all the more of a pity that yeserday's match didn't pan out as a contest.

Very true, I was so disappointed. I think Rafa and Novak could have a very interesting rivalry coming up - I truly believe Djoko is one of the very few who isn't intimidated by Nadal. I am going to be watching them both with more and more interest!

Give me a call when someone other than Nadal takes Federer to 5 sets at Wimbledon and has four break points early on in the fifth.

:D Good point!!

Did Sampras have any break points in the 5th against Fed at Wimlbedon?? I can't remember.. :wacko:

4-4, 30-40. Fed saved it with an unreturnable.

it seems to me nowadays on here, every time you log on you have posters like QJ and Choka trawling through threads looking to have a pop at some one (player or poster), or other people making out that posters are not worthy of posting because they dont study the game 24 7. this board is losing the posters that made it the community it was and i can understand why

I was thinking the same, is grass much faster than clay these days? Roger seemed to be having the same problem getting the ball away from Nadal today as he did in Paris. He can run down virtually every ball and hit a winner off it. Yet he struggles on hard court .
It was a great performance from Nadal this Wimbledon but the speed of the court appears to suit his game .So I think the term 'grass court specialist' doesnt really apply anymore .Its a throwback to the days of serve-volleying .
Im not going to say bring back the good old daysof s-v, but I would like to see more attacking tennis and shorter rallies on grass. It should be the fastest surface IMO.

Liam, do you mean that? Are we losing posters?

I went through the list of members the other day and actually there aren't that many who have over 1,000 posts - and most of them are still here. Exceptions (and greatly missed from my point of view) are: Dav and LDF. WelshBoy hasn't been around for a while but, like ScotsGuy who seemed to have disappeared, I imagine - and hope - he will turn up again.

Then there are several people with around 500 posts, who still keep posting at intervals.

And there are quite a few members with under 50 posts, and while we had hoped they would stay, they quickly faded out for the most part.

But thanks to you, SuperBrat, Lex, Trisco, DinkyJo, Big Al + several others, there is still life and interest on here, so deo volente, we shall keep going :ok: :ok: :ok:

How could I forget Pebs and Petalp (I'm in sackcloth and ashes)

Oh s*** and Serena W19!

I think this was the same argument with roddick... how come he is number three.. when what he really does well in is the grass season...

Nadal is not really one dimensional...because one dimensional will not even win you a single clay court slam, thats more or less fool hardy thinking...I think what makes him number two apart from winning somany clay titles is his motivation and grit.

He simply doesn't want to give up having not tried...and like I always say..motivation will triumph over simple talent. The unfortunate thing is you cant be that motivated 24 /7 and after the clay season he begins to tire out towards the rest of the season. Personally there is a clear quality about the talent of Federer as opposed to Nadal .. and more importantly his consistancy...I mean ...how many slam finals has it been so far...the only person second to him is justine henin.

And why does Blake seem to own Nadal on hard surfaces...but not on other surfaces ..I think that is a big clue into the nature of Nadal's game...which is not as strong on hard surfaces as opposed to FEd's which is more or less balanced on all the surfaces. This is what gives the impression of the one dimension.

Nadal will improve, even sharapova et al....just takes abit more time than the more talented players of the quality of Federer. The real telling point will be when and if Nadal becomes number 1......

After that , will he be as motivated to go on and dominate all the other slams or the bark of the beast is going to quiten down to a whimper..cause there is nothing to prove.

Hats off to FED... he keeps going and going like the energizer bunny :)

Well, that in itself proves very little, since some games match up better against others. I.e., consider Soderling v Rafa on grass this year, or e.g. Youzhny v Rafa versus Youzhny v Federer on hardcourts --- things simply aren't transitive, to use the mathematical term.

*HOWEVER*, based on Rafa's performance in the final today, I am very much willing to consider him for the #2 spot on grass. Not necessarily because he troubled Fed, but because he really played awe-inspiring tennis. I'm still not impressed by the time he takes between points, but apart from that ... he was truly fantastic, particularly in the third set (even though he lost it).

:bow:

Actually I think it means quite a lot as no-one has challenged Federer that much on grass in 5 years.

The fact is he played a different level of tennis today than against Youzny, Youz game may well match up against Nadal, but if Nadal plays like today then he will beat him. The same goes for MOST I think. Some may beat him, but given the fact he's gotten to the Wimbledon Final for two years running now and has been the only person to take so many sets off Federer in grass since he's been Wimbledon champ I think he's earned the right to be called the second best on grass. He may not have the 2nd best grass court game. But I think he is probably the second most dangerous player on the surface :ok: And I think it actually is transitive, he is determined to win and like the great champion he did what he needed to. Obviously he came up against a better player today.

True. We gone quiet of late andmost of those who left were more WTA .

Tell me more ... I'm interested to find out why a sI think we are losing a lot of posters and I'm personally not enjoyng thexperince on here as much as before. I'm a CC dedicated poster but I've considered tryign out other places as a result.

Could nto agree more. :D

I'm not takign away form Nadal in the modern game and surfaces, but things have changed immensely. I recall grass back to the 1970s and really find ti hard to reconcile No 2 on grass for Nadl with No2 ongrass back then. The surface favours a bigger vareiety and number of players nowadays so talking abotu Nadal as No2 on grass somehow seems silly.

I might be wrong but did he played the match he lost on grass at NH? I heard they played it indoors because of the rain. Was it indoor grass????

In anycase Gasquet is not the best grass court player....he is has the potential I feel though.

Agreed with you two here. Today's match showed that clearly. I am not sure however that grass is slower than hard but for sure a slazenger is bigger than a wilson (used at the USO) and that in itself makes the ball fly faster on Hard than in Wimbledon.

It still hurts, isn't it?
;)

You must include Ancic, the player that seems to be forgotten adn is out with illness this year. As an side, woudl love to see rafa v mario when SuperMario is in his zone.

We need above all someone with a dble handed BH who can make nadal run R to L and L to R. Djoko does it best. Federers single handed BH does not do very well against too much top spin. It is as simple as that. Everybody else with smaller arms can't produce that pace AND topspin can behandled pretty confortably by Federer.