I don't care how un pc it is to say it, but i thik Serena Williams has won so many slams because of poor competition.
Her game is not varied enough to have competed with the likes of Graf, Navratilova and King, they would have exposed her lack of technique. etc, and she is very lucky to be where she is.

I'm not saying she has no talent, she has a great serve and powerful ground strokes, but you only have to watch her to know she has' nothing else.
Most of the competition in her career have been quite poor themselves.
Davernport-a nice girl but choker. Hingis-now a choker, but once able to play her.
Venus-a similar mould to Serena power and speed and no brains (on court)

It's very sad when someone who takes the game so lightly as Serena does win's slams, still who said there was justice ind. the world.

A player with dignity such as jennifer capriati , who was a sinner re-born deserves our respect, but Serena i fear will carry on the road her father chose for herself and we will judge accordingly

I agree with your part about Jennifer Capriati.

I agree when you say Serena has a lot of power to her ground strokes but that's where I stop agreeing with you. Although they are the dominant part of her game she has more to her game than just that.

She would have taken a few slams off Graf I think but in general having seen them both play my opinion is that Graf would have gotten the better out of their head to heads.

But to say she is lucky, well.... I can't agree. And Venus has no brains? Eh? Again, I don't agree.

Gav,
what i meant by lucky, is that Serena hasn't had top face a player like Graf, Navratilova or Seles (peak) in her time, the nearest you get to those sorts of players now would be Henin.
The reason we don't have the female players we used to is VANITY. at one time the female palyers devoted themselves to the game, now they have too many other concerns and we get the sorts of players we get as a result,
When Martina and Steffi played they were focused 100% on the game, not outside interests.
I think Anna Kournakova is a prime example of a girl who had talent but, was too in love with herself to take the game 100% serjiously.
Henin is quite committed but she's a shrimp compared to the power players, but her determination sees her through.

:angry: I don't know exactly where you are coming from there metaphysical...
but such over generalization is not sound.......

It is kind of unwise to compare the game now to when Graf used to play...alot has changed since....mind you Graf also played some fantastic chokers to win the many slams as she did......

Times have changed....everything is showbiz and marketing....so if Anna makes more money off court than on court..... of course she will move towards the side that makes it easier to pay her bills....

You can't say those who came up to fill her place are thrash...

the same now happens in soccer in basketball and so on....

Justine is who she is because of a whole bunch of things coming together for her...to make her the player that she is ....there are many other gutsy players who are also dinky and yet still can do as well as justine......

Context is always very important...don't take them out of the larger picture....
Serena has beaten many a talented player to get to where she is now.....

Really ignorant post I can't wait for SW19 and dl04 to eat you! roflmao

First of all most fans agree Serena has won her slams at around one of THE most competitive eras ever! She had the competition of these greats: Venus, Hingis, Henin, Davenport, Clijsters, Pierce, Capriati the tail end of Graf, Monica Seles, Vicario.

Second of all if you think she (and Venus as you say) are brainless ball bashers you are an idiot. Yes they have a hell of alot of power in their games but not just that. Superb movement - the finest example from the 21st century and unbeleivable athleticism. They have a variety of spins available to them and amazing accuracy and length, HUGE serves that are well varied and place, the strongest mentalities out on the tour and yes decent vollies.
They also do use gameplans. Serena had to change up and come to net to beat Henin at Miami. In the AO final you may notice she nearly always used her stronger forehand - the crosscourt - and moved the ball laterally exposing Sharapova's shite movement. Look at W 05 semi to see Venus's similar destruction of her.

Thirdly don't know what your talking about Capriati for. Serena didn't mess up her life like she did - she made herself.

Fourthly I see no apparent lack of technique in their games whatsoever. If they can hit the ball better than anyone else then where is this flaw!

Fifthly it is acknowledged that they are both greats and even speculated that Serena is the Best Player of All Time if you count her 'peak play'.

Where is the evidence that Serena 'takes the game so lightly '?
Serena may have outside interests, that seems healthy, tennis players are people too, they need things other than tennis in they're lives, we all need a variety of things.
She has had injury and personal setbacks, and i'm sure motivation be affected, but you seem to require Serena to be an automaton only capable of living and thinking tennis-tennis players are people too!

Absolute crap as usual metaphysical. To come back from her 'vanity' period and beat the best quite easily to win a slam is something i doubt even Steffi could have done. Your ignorance os Serenas hard work and talent shows up your ignorance of the sport. If you want to constantly slag a person for the sake of it without real construction, visit the bbc, although i doubt even the trolls there will tolerate it :angry: :angry:

After so many ridiculous posts Fed-Will I am starting to see now that he/she is nothing more than a WUM. Im not even going to waste my time reading metaphysical's drivel in the future.

Everyone's entitled to voice their opinion. Mine is that you're talking out of your arse (now here's where such a smiley would be welcomed - ?).

I believe this is the most appropiate one Roysie: :blah:

Think you're spot on there SW. Although I was hoping there would be a more "graphic" one!! Not been on for a while and have just noticed the new smilies. They're great. Shame some of the new posters can't be described in the same way though! :crazy1:

I can't quite fathom why the phrase 'weak era' seems to crop up so often in tennis.

It doesn't seem to crop up in other sports... :shrug:

Anyone with any ideas on this? Unless there are 'weak era' debates raging on message boards for Rugby League, Badminton, Lacrosse, etc and I'm just not aware of them! :lol:

I like the fact you have tried to break the barrier down - Serena and Venus certainly pushed the game on with their new edge in power and athleticism, and it took the rest of the tour about 3-4 years to catch up, so I would suggest that is was a bit of a "weak era" vacuum for them to collect slams then.

It certainly isn't anymore, I wish they would play a bit more regularly to prove the case.

I'm afraid a few (not all agreed!) of the sentiments are true though

Sam, honestly, you should be ashamed of yourself for even agreeing with such a post :rolleyes:

And for saying it's a weak era, just because Venus and Serena raised the bar, when they were winning everything it was no more of a week era than it is for Federer now, just as he has raised the bar.

They won everything because they were better than everyone. Period and Serena still is, Get used to it, you've had long enough to.

Such as?...

Whlie some of these are not the complete sentences from the original post I have to say these sentiments I do agree with.

As I said earlier, I think Graf would have had the edge had they ever met at peak form (tough to compare though)

I think that is correct, but I think her game is more than that also.

As for the rest of the post. I can't agree with any of it. But we are all allowed our own opinions, even if some of us think they are horse poop.

I think metaphysical could have worded things better, but yet again on this site I see people are willing to jump up and down on someone very quickly and it becomes gangwarfare just because someone decided to post an alternative opinion.

Yeah those are probably the only decent points Gav. Although I think Serena/Steffi head to head would've been close 20-16 to Steffi maybe, Steffi's more consistent, and faster, that's why she would have the edge imo.

But Serena is a complete player though and I baulk at the insinuation that all she has to her game are serve and power groundstrokes. It's a completely nonsense statement, as is most of the post :wacko:

And I don't think it's a matter of people jumping down other people's throats either, it's about people posting the same drivel repetitively, and others getting fed up of it, and I don't think on any internet site that people wouldn't get fed up of it.

Yes, this poster is posting negatively on the same theme more than not, but other players have been slagged off on here (most noticeably Kim Clijsters and to a certain extent Maria Sharapova) and eyelids are not even battered. It's best to say "I don't agee" and post your opinion rather than slag the poster surely?

That's a fair point, people can get unnecessarily hetted up, and I myself have been guilty of this before now.

But I guess with so many contrasting personalities and different favourites a little friction is inevitable :shrug:

Also I do think the "bitching" about Kim and Maria is slightly more toungue in cheek than what is going on here. Although saying that I wouldn't say metaphysical is being profane or anything. He/she just seems to have an odd vendetta and seems to come on the board soley to stirr up controversy!

Same few people too. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, even if they're wrong.

Gav,
My post was because I think it's quite feasible that Serena would have competed on a level with Graf, Nav, King & others - albeit with a lesser H2H against them; saying that Serena has nothing but serve & groundstrokes is complete tosh: Davenport & Hingis cannot be regarded as chokers - absolute crap: Venus having power, speed & no brains isn't just crap, it's entirely ignorant of her ability and standing within the game: Serena carrying on the road set down by her father - most players are on the road that their parents set them on. Just because Capriati went spectacularly off the rails and then recovered to reach the heights she did doesn't mean that she deserves more respect than Serena. My response wasn't because meta had posted an "alternative opinion". As I said, we are all entitled to voice as such.

PS - I've never been a huge fan of either Williams. Capriati has been a favourite since 91, along with some of the other players mentioned in the original post - Graf more so. I'm not jumping to reply just for the sake of it or because anyone else has.I just find such posts entirely ignorant, biased and insulting and I assume I am allowed to say so.

How can an opinion be wrong? It's the WUMs people object to. I recall reading a post of yours to the same effect the Football forum the other day. Anyway if people feel a certain standpoint is born out of ignorance they're more than within their right to say so.

Quite a lot of people are opinionated on this board, but it seems quite a lot are judgemental as well.

At the risk of having my head bitten off, i do think some of the points raised by the initial post are interesting-the initial post itself clearly written out of bitterness and is glib in the extreme, but we shouldn't side step some of the points because of that.

Regarding Serena and Steffi, i think the H2H would be much closer than many seem to think. had their careers coincided i think Steffi would have won far more slams, but that's because Serena is so often injured. I think Graf would have the advantage on clay, but elsewhere Serena have the advantage.
Serena -at her best can dominate anyone, and would have hit through anything Graf could give her, when having an off day, then Graf would win. Obviously this is speculation-but what's wrong with that?

I'm not saying an opinion is wrong. It's just that if someone has an opposite opinion to you, then you're bound to think that their opinion is wrong.

But it should be possible to disagree in a civilised manner. Too often its easier to argue the person than their argument.

Point taken. Please forward my apology to meta if he/she logs on and I'm not around :halo:

this is spot on, the ad hominem argument is much abused, it's easier to slag off the person rather than address the point they make-i think we all fall into that trap from time to time.

But of course I can't speak for anyone else.... :whistle:

I don't think anyone would jump on you BT after making such an interesting post :) As I said most people seem to be able to present their own opinions competently, and I don't think there's any liklihood of a "slagging" match in here.

Anyway, yes that's quite similar to what I wrote, of course we know it's not quite fair to compare eras, but interesting nonetheless :P Imagine a Wimbledon match between 1988 Steffi and 2002 Serena :pray:

i'm sure it's only a matter of time before a 'virtual match ' could be played by any historical players (given enough available data) and we would be able to watch realistic simulations of say Graf and Serena or any combination of players on computer or tv.
mmm what possibilities peak King v Venus, or Navratilova v Serena, i wish they'ld get on and invent it!

the thing that stands out in this thread is the title 2Serena lucky to be a winner" it was bound to have the same effect as the "Sampras cant rally" thread

I was thinking about that the other day, could never be fully reliable of course but it would be so great to watch! I haven't seen much of BJK to be honest, so I would only be guessing at how she'd fare against Serena! All these matches though between the baseliners since the 90's and the serve and volleyers such as Margaret Court, King and Navratilova would surely be fascinating matches though!

There would have to be a way of getting neutral surfaces and racquets etc, but it would be really fascinating. i guess you could have a kind of historical grand slam, selecting the greatest-say 32 players ever and have them play off on different surfaces. I guess if you go back far enough, tennis does become a different kind of game and it would be impossible for players to interact.
But i guess you could go back 30 maybe 40 years-maybe we should patent the idea!

I don't think you could really go back any farther than Margaret Court anyway, as we just don't have enough footage before the 60's.

Yeah like an all time YEC championships or something

Graf
Seles
Serena
Navratilova
Evert
King
Court
Venus/Justine?

Round robins played alternatively on carpet and hard, then the semis on clay and the final on grass. Bad luck for Evert if she ended up against Navratilova again in the final though roflmao

Similar to the "Outrage" thread title about Kim perhaps? :P

*Gav rocks the boat with Liam*

Now that depends at what stage of their careers.... Take a look at their head to head....it's one of the oddest you will see. Navratilova struggled early on and Evert was 22-4 up on her at one stage!

Nav ended up winning that head to head by 43-37..... doubt there will EVER be such a longstanding rivalry like that again..

:P Gav its friday mate, no chance of winding me up til monday morning :moody: roflmao

Can you come back into this thread and re-read that on Monday then? ;)

I know I look at their head to head all the time it's so interesting! Nav holds the edge on carpet while dominating on grass while Chris holds the edge on hard while dominating on clay.

Also it's interesting that it started out with Chris dominating then it levelled out by the late 70's then Martina dominated from 81-84 then it started levelling out again 85/86 and their matches became more even!

well i get the feeling this thread will still be active by then :rolleyes: