Each-way decider

Leo Schlink

April 14, 2007 12:00am
Article from: Herald-Sun

INVENTIVE Spanish Government officials have issued Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal, the world's two best tennis players, with the ultimate challenge.

Aware that Swiss Federer is unchallenged on grass and Spaniard Nadal is similarly dominant on clay, Spain has created a hybrid grass and claycourt to test the pair.

Federer, winner of 10 majors, and Nadal, the dual French Open champion, will square off next month on Nadal's island home of Mallorca to decide who really reigns.

An International Management Group official last night confirmed Mallorca interests were building a court comprised of clay and grass.

"As you look at it from the umpire's chair, the court to his right will be made of clay and the court to his left will be grass," the official said.

"This is meant to be fun, but both Roger and Rafa are taking it very seriously. On May 2, in Palma, the King of Grass will face the King of Clay. It will be very interesting."

Nadal has won six of nine matches against Federer -- and has never lost to the world No. 1 on clay.

Federer, frustrated by an inability to combat world No. 2 Nadal's wicked top-spin, has won the pair's past two clashes, including an epic All-England Club final.

But the Swiss maestro has been eliminated at the French Open for the past two years by Nadal, with last season's four-set defeat in the final cutting deep. Off-court, the men are good friends.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2...5-11088,00.html

http://www.thebattleofsurfaces.com/

What a great idea. It should be a brilliant spectacle. The two players will change ends after every uneven game as normal.
At the first the plan was for there to be no change of ends with Nadal on clay and Federer on grass throughout. However they probably realised that would be unfair as the person on clay has the advantage of having more time to chase down and hit the ball than the guy on grass.

I have often wondered how something like that might work out - but I think it is a bit of a gimmick.

The player on clay would have a huge advantage over that on grass - far more time to play his shots in every situation and he would probably be the one coming to the net too!

I heard about this on another board - I think its a very interesting idea - would love to watch.

They said though, that they werent changing ends - which I didnt think was fair - but you say they are AA?

According the following website:

http://www.thebattleofsurfaces.com/

'The characteristics of the match will be normal. That is, it will be played to the best of three sets with the usual changes of side, in uneven games'

Apparently at first there were going to be no change of ends of all, then they changed their minds to change ends at the end of each set, before finally they decided to change ends after every uneven number of games as per normal. Common sense prevailed. It is going to be very tricky for the players to keep on having to adapt to the two surfaces after every couple of games. It should be a lot of fun though.

Yes. It is a good idea but not practical as the clay courter has the advantage of his clay without having the disadventage of grass like slippery, fast, low bounce.

The only advantage fed would have is that the bounce will be lower but he might be faced with uneven bounces, less time to adjust his FHs, etc..

In fact having Fed playing on clay and having Nadal play on the grass side will be in Fed's advantage as Fed shots would be more deadly and Nadal having less time to inject his power and spin.

So a fair match woudl be to have one set played on each side.

The decider, if needed, in Augusta!

My post came a bit late but I am glad they came to the same conclusion.

is it not dangerous to keep changing from grass to clay every couple of games? will they change their shoes after every change? :blink:

Interesting premise. I hope they don't take it too seriously though because as Liam says changing between two surfaces like that surely increases the risk of injury.

Would the player on clay really have such a significant advantage?

I think that it depends on the player. Fed loves playing on grass. He has the instinct to compensate for the uneven bounce, and the ball comes onto the racquet much better.

I mean, on clay, taking the ball on the rise is much harder simply because it bounces so much with the topspin! Fed would have the advantage of being able to hit his next shot with more confidence having drawn Rafa out of position with, say an inside-out forehand, and Rafa would have less recovery time to get back into position. .

Also, Rafa would have to do much more chasing than Fed, simply as it's more of an endurance test on clay. Fed would be able to win quicker points simply because he can counter-punch Rafa more effectively.

If Rafa were to come to the net then Fed would pass him. He would have to play reflex passing shots which he has said that he loves playing. Fed likes a target to aim at. Anyone remember that cross-court passing shot to win the first set against Rafa in the SW19 final last year?

Rafa's top spin would be negated in baseline rallies. So less moonballing. He'd still be lethal with passing shots though.

If this rather fun sounding gimmick were to go ahead, then I agree that they shouldn't change ends. If they do then do it for each set only.

It would be weird for them though, I would imagine..

ah, gotcha - thanks for that :)

hmmm... I kinda liked the idea of them changing as I would be curious to see how each player adapted - but not at detriment to the safety of the player - maybe at the end of each set would be safer as Petal suggested?

I have to say I'm fairly gobsmacked that both men would agree to go forward with this stunt in the midst of what is in many ways the most critical time of the season for them (with Federer trying to get into his best possible clay form to finally claim the only Slam title he has yet to capture, and Nadal seeking to maintain his dominance of the past two years as well as the big points that form the bedrock of his No 2 ranking).

I'm not surprised in the sense that both men have demonstrated several times that they are excellent ambassadors of the sport, willing to trade on their storied rivalry and dual reign over the rankings to promote exposure and excite interest in tennis. But you'd think they'd rather wait until, say, post-USO or even the off-season (in Oz perhaps like the Hopman Cup) for the unique experiment. On the other hand, by then one or both of them may have already suffered shock defeats on his favoured surface, reducing the lure and significance of the exhibition's novelty value, so I can see why time is of the essence in that case (of course Nadal still has to get through Monte Carlo and possibly Barcelona before then!). I guess I just hope they take the most care to avoid any resultant injury or undue distraction, what with their historic professional goals at stake.

The change of ends seems to make the most sense, since each man derives an advantage not only on having the surface beneath him but also holding his opponent hostage on it; the high bounce of clay renders Nadal's topspin lethal, and the low bounce and speed of grass allows Federer's variety of shot and attacking style to be that much more effective. If this really pans out it might be a statistician's delight to see which circumstance was most favourable to which player. And with Federer having held match points against Nadal on clay, and the Spaniard taking one set and nearly two off Federer in their only grass encounter, perhaps it will all just be a wash. Might be fun.

Yep Petalp but Nadal on grass will have a lower bounce and less time to inject the spin on the ball which will make Fed's FH and BH on clay much easier and deadly. Nadal is a danger on clay cause he has plenty of time to retrieve and spin the ball. If he is on grass then it is a completely different story.

It is clear to me that Fed on grass and Nadal on clay will not work in Fed's favour. Fed's shot on grass are deadly cause he hits them rather flat and don't bounce much. But if those shots bounce on clay instead, then (despite easier shots for Fed) they won't cause as much problem to Nadal.

But in anycase, I do not think we should take this seriously as Gav mentioned. It will only be a funny exhibition.

Hi Tenez :)

I kind of echo Manzikert's thoughts that the timing of this whole thing is rather bizarre. I'd wondered if this would have been the sort of thing that they would have done at the end of the season, or towards the twilight of their respective careers!

Mind you, there is a precedent for this I guess, with Fed and Rafa's little 'street fight' (or whatever it was called) that took place prior to the US Open in New York last year. Again, as Manzi also mentioned, it was typical of Fed and Rafa's willingness to promote tennis, fulfilling their roles well as ambassadors for the game once again. :ok:

There is another precedent that springs to mind, but this time is Fed v Andre on that court hundreds of feet above the ground (was it Dubai?).

Just a small aspect of the article that was interesting was the overt reference to their friendship. They are both nice guys who get along, and therefore are probably far more amenable to this than if they couldn't stand the sight of each other, a la Connors and Mac.

Re: the technicalities of Grass/ Clay, yes, I agree that Fed's low skiddy shots would be neutralised to an extent by the clay surface.

I'd still put him at an advantage, even if he were on the grass court side, as Rafa's top spin would also be neutralised and Fed would be able to hit the ball earlier and take the initiative more often. Rafa would find it more difficult to come to the net as he'd be standing several feet behind the baseline as is usual in his game, and also he'd have to get to the net more quickly than on a usual clay court as the ball would come to Fed much more quickly on the grass side. It's one of the arts of serve and volley in the grass court game in that the player really has to rush to the net to cut the angle before their opponent hits a passing shot.

Anyway, as you mentioned this is all much more of a novelty, and in spite of their strong competitive instincts, they will both treat it as such. :)

Battle of the surfaces-Roger vs Rafa


I'm looking forward to this although it's a crazy idea......


Thouhts anyone??

Great idea! I'm normally very sceptical of gimmicky type initiatives in the game, but this one really catches my imagination. I'd also love the idea of an ATP (or WTA for that matter) tournament having all regular surfaces - clay, indoor hard, indoor carpet, outdoor hard(Decoturf and Rebound Ace) and grass, although I don't really know whether it would work logistically, and I'm not sure how happy players would be with it.

Or perhaps, the lower ranked player out of 2 opponents get to pick which surface to use...

It would be good to have one of these for the WTA as well, half clay and half grass Justine vs Serena or something like that :D

Im really looking forward to seeing how this works though. Should be fun :)

Great Idea Im all for this and what fun it should be.

Im was some time ago toying with a Surface Grandslam! Normal Grandslam rules but we have all the surfaces Hard,Indoor Carpet,clay and grass.....The rules then function like Davis Cup but the player that has beaten his opponent in their previous meeting gets to decide which surface they play on.If they have never met it is then played on a neutral surface which will be hardcourt since hardcourt is universal and standard!

It will be called the Surface Grandslam and it will yield interesting matches.If opponents are that good then they will have to overcome their worst surfaces against their worst opponents to win and this is a levelling the playing fields event!

What do you guys think?

There was another thread in a diff part of the ATP forum covering this so have merged the two together - have a read through - some interesting thoughts. :)

No it is not a good idea and will lead to nausea and confusion.
I think that for far to long the ATP (Association of Tennis Players) has mucked around with surfaces a prime example being indoor carpet.
Carpet is useful in dining areas but as a sports surface it is sadly lacking.
~God help us!

Clay on the other hand is both a charming colour and refined.

I don't really like it. It's a complete marketing gimmick, tucked in the middle of the clay season, when neither will really be preparing for grass-court play. It will really be a shame if either player ends up with an injury from this.

I still think my idea is kinda more feasible!!! Sorry to blow my own trumpet!

The more I think about this Exhibition, the less I care. First, I believe a few other players are catching up Roger and Rafa. They will not be perceived as the dominant 1 & 2 for ever. That means that Roger and Rafa could be beaten by a Djoko on this 2 halves surface. If Seppi was close to an upset yesterday, imagine the rest of the field.

What really interests me is MC, how Fed will improve on clay and if he does can he over take Rafa on it, then the other masters and of course the French, cause if Roger can win the French then this Exhibition has no reason to be. Those exhibition gimmicks are only of interest if they can raise some charity money....so I hope it does just do that!

I think players need time to adapt to new surfaces. A multi-surface event would lead to injuries imo.

True,but given the fact that throughout the year they would have played on every surface it could be a year end slam.I mean players would obviously have to choose carefully which matches with which opponents they play on which surface carefully!Its about strategy and obviously,you gotta at least play a match on every surface.

Besides the changes in surfaces throughout the season are drastic,I mean look at the transition from hardcourt to clay to grass immediately then hard then indoor.It wouldnt be that much risky!

Don't we all love it the way it is now? Let's not become some De Viliers clowns! We can't get rid of this one and one is enough! ;)

Come now Tenez,we are just being imaginative and in no way are we being ridiculous as Ettienne.I must say that he is a disgrace coz Im South African and it an insult to me for his lack of thinking.

Anyway,when World Team Tennis started is was also just another imaginative carzy idea and look at it today!I just feel as times change new challenges should be brought in to add new elements of fun to the game.These days people really dont play for the fun or love of the sport its all about money.Very few have that honest love and desire to just compete and its sad!

Far from me Darky to compare you with DV. If he had a 1000th ounce of your love and knowledge for the game, The ATP would not be in the mess it is now.

I was warning ourselves (I also toyed with the idea in the beginning of the thread) that it could be interesting but there is a huge gap between toying with ideas and applying them like he does without consulting the pros.

I'm not sure what this exhibition will actually prove as they will be playing on their favoured surfaces. The outcome? Federer is the best grass courter, Nadal the best clay courter. Are we not already aware of that? Bit of fun but a waste of time, effort and the financial set-up IMHO :doh:

True,I know you would never compare me to that clown!But if in a good few years time when we are old and grey and my idea becomes reality,remember you heard it here first ;)

If I become a billionaire I will seriously invest in it.I really love the idea of a BATTLE SLAM "Battle of the Surfaces" my style.It would be interesting!

Sounds like fun, but i don't think it will prove anything much.
As an interesting diversion to the main tour, there's no harm in it.

i'm trying to get my head around how it will play, be fun if they had the fastest grass poss and the slowest clay poss, for total contrast.

Thats great.The idea is to let the winner from the previous match you had with your opponent choose the surface,however you need to play on all the surfaces at least once in 7 matches.If you have never played you play on a neutral surface that being a standard hardcourt!It would also be fun coz Im thinking green clay should be included!

Here's a look at the dual-surface court being prepared for Wednesday's farce^H^Hmatch.



Still not sure what to make of it. I just hope it won't interfere with either player's fitness for Rome next week.

At least Nadal managed to remain undefeated on clay going into the exhibition to maintain that aspect of the premise.

How weird does that look? Also, not expecting a huge crowd, are they? :D

Look at the 2 workers at the bottom of the pic? roflmao roflmao roflmao

That court looks like weird...Its also now more visibly clear that the person on clay has a distinct advantage!

sorry for being dense dark, but is that because they'll have longer to retrieve the ball and stuff?

Yes that is one half of it the other half is that when they hit the ball hard its gonna skid through on the grass resulting in a lower bounce and shorter reply.

Its gonna boil down to a lucky break on either side!Gonna be quite interesting!