i recently had a discussion with a mate in which i said that i think intellectually the debate about whether intelligent extraterrestrials have visited us is over. The idea that UFO's (which i'm using as a shorthand for extraterrestrial life, not it's literal meaning) is dead in the water. There's just too much poor evidence, and no unequivocal evidence. Once piece of good evidence will do, not blurs, blobs or bogus baloney but something substantial that would prove et is really here, but there's sweet f**k all in that department.
The idea that cosmic beings traverse near infinite space, in order to keep themselves, to themselves is beyond reason. I agree with Arthur C Clarke, if they come hear, we'll know about it, rather like close encounters (but without poor acting).
A hyper technological world has undone that species of belief, because any half wit with a camera or phone-cam could show us once and for all we were wrong, and they havn't .

Don't believe in it. I find the question itself comical actually. I don't even believe in another life-inhabited planet in the universe.

But i do believe that God and angels sit up on clouds and look after us.

So you agree with my proposition.
Belief in extra terrestrials in the cosmos is more of a cultural phenomenon rather than anything scientifically based, after all the concept is by definition is unlikely to be verifiable.

As for God and Angels watching us, not sure if you were being
ironic or not, but given the amount of s**t in the world they
seem far too detached from human suffering for my liking-maybe they're not benevolent after all.

Where is Superbrat when we need her....

This sort of debate is right up her street.

(re UFO's I am a sceptic. I am open to the possibility of other intelligent life existing somewhere else in the vastness of the universe, but I don't believe that it has made contact with us on earth yet for two reasons: a. intelligence as I understand it involves curiosity, and I would expect that to result in any contact being substantial and repeated - and there is no evidence of contact of that sort of which I am aware; b. those who assert the existence of UFO's etc. find themselves relying upon unclear evidence and conspiracy theories - and anyone who has read my offerings on the moon landings thread will know what I think about that.)

barrystar,
i agree entirely, and while i consider myself an open minded sceptic, like yourself, i've got a hunch that there's actually no other life out there.
I guess the implications are profound either way, but the idea that this is it in terms of intelligence in the universe is a bit scary.

There is no evidence at all to seriously suggest that there has been any contact with extraterrestrial life on Earth whatsoever.

In general, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, in the current situation, and beyond the usual principle of "Occam's Razor", I would agree with what has been said before: if it had happened, we'd more likely than not have definite evidence.

However, I *do* believe that it is likely that there is life elsewhere in the universe. While I'm not sure that I believe that the universe is infinite (and most cosmological theories say that it is not), it demonstrably *is* rather large. So the likelihood of life having developed elsewhere seems rather good. Quite probably we will never know, seeing as though it's difficult to get anywhere outside of our solar system, and even our immediate galactic neighborhood is out of reach.

Mighty,
I agree the possibility of life elsewhere exists, the larger the universe
the larger the possibility .In fact that very idea
and Frank Drake’s famous equation, make the possibility of other life-even intelligent quite compelling.
The problem then is- the more likely the possibility of life elswhere in the universe, the more we have to ask-where is it? maybe ET doesn’t want to be seen, or there my be technoligical limits on both communication and travel, or limits on the longevity of technological civilisations,
or even more startling maybe we are a one off and for whatever reason life only actually got going once!

Yes we could think that probabilities are high that life exists somewhere else if we believe our own world and its higher intelligence is a combination of lucky events.

So by sorting out the second question, we can draw conclusions on the first one.

I do believe that men currently running the world instead of dynosaurs is no part of luck but I cannot prove that. It is just my belief. It is simply "obvious" to me.

What is also obvious is that you have a bit of Dynosaurs in men!

i find the idea that we are the only life bearing planet in the universe quite prepostorous. However i dont believe our planet has ever been visiting by aliens either

My point is that having, space, time ,life instead of nothing can be considered an odd thing. So having life and even more so higher intelligence on earth itself can also be considered preposterous if you think about it.

...but because we do exist and think, we tend not to question it.

if you know what I mean... ;)

sorry i dont Tenez, thats a bit deep for me on a friday afternoon :wacko: roflmao

No worries!

Have you tried ginger btw? :D

We pretty much know that there has been life of sorts on other planets, the real question is whether there is/has been any intelligent life. As I say, I am prepared to believe that somewhere else in the universe there is such a thing, but don't think that there has ever been solid evidence of it.

And, Tenez.... :wacko: :blink:

No actually we do not know Barry. We have stipulated that some unicellular forms were mineralised on Mars but no evidence to prove it so far. Since there is none of it on the moon either and we have not brought back samples from other planets, we cannot say. The day we bring back some DNA or something equivalent fine but up to now we don’t have such material.

Fair enough - I was guilty of reading too much into the evidence.

But as the same time one may argue that stars and planet live. They have a birth and a death.

Bloody complicated world out there :huh:

This is an interesting post, and reflects a wide spread opinion
'We pretty much know that there has been life of sorts on other planets'
there isn't one shred of evidence of outside our own planet for life, but based on the most spurious pseudo science it's now stated by many as fact, and if not fact then the idea is assumed to be sound, pending verification.
Darwin's theory evolution implied that matter could transform itself into life, and then multifarious forms of life, given enough time and the right conditions.
Using this as a conceptual platform it's said -given a near infinite amount of matter (ie the universe) and time the same process must necessarily occur, making life in the universe not only a plausible but a logical inevitability.
The problem is there's no way to determine how probable or improbable the formation of life itself is. It's a bit like asking 'how likely was it that William Shakespeare' was born. He was born and lived of course, but does that mean he must have been born and lived? of course not, to exist does not mean must exist.
In an infinite universe one can postulate any possible set of events, but infinity itself is not a verifiable concept by definition, and it's metaphysical claptrap to work backwards from a starting position of the infinite to a conclusion that is based upon it. Given enough time and space we could speculate that Homer Simpson is alive and kicking in the cosmos, that doesn't mean he is.

Big-Todger - I was referring to what I thought was evidence that there had been life on Mars, but Tenez drew me up short.

Otherwise - when the Universe is as big as it is, can we safely discount the possibility of a similar set of coincidences to that which has lead to life on earth?

if it's an infinite universe containing a finite number of worlds, then any number divided by infinity is so infinitessimally small, that any lifeform you happen to bump into is probably a figment of your own imagination

When I said "prepared to believe" I may have been misunderstood (my fault). I am not prepared to take it as a fact, or even likely. I just don't know. I am prepared to accept that it is possible.

If life as we understand it is the result of an extraordinary series of coincidences, then I don't feel able to discount the possibility that somewhere in what I understand to be the vastness of the universe something similar has occurred.

We certainly can't discount the possibility for sure, but what i was addressing was more the widespread assumption that based on current thinking in this area it's pretty much cut and dried and just a matter of verifying what is already assumed to be true. The truth is the likelihood of ET can't formulated, because we only have one example known to us, you cant us probability theory based on one example.
As soon as we find some life existing elsewhere in the cosmos, however simple, that changes everything in terms of probability.

I hope you didn't mind me quoting you, i understand the point you were making, i just saw the words and seized the moment.

The problem is, how do you define life ? As Tenez says a star could be said to be alive. But we tend to think of organic matter (carbon based) as sign of life .
Which might be the case in the conditons on one planet in our tiny solar system but what are the chances of finding another similar planet where our type of life exists? And how do we even know that we are the most intelligent form of life on earth ? We're just not aware of any other.

Theres too many questions and not enough concrete answers here. I keep an open mind but definitely dont at the moment believe in flying saucers or little green men . ;)

This UFO thing led to an interesting debate. But I agree with Big Al, there is no certain conclusion to draw. Even Darwin evolution can be questioned to some extend. He believed that simply reproduction and survival of the strongest led to this diversity but others believe in the orthogenesis ( a kind of "guided" evolution). Impossible to disprove either at this stage, like it is impossible to prove life outside earth for now.

I personally like to think that we are not the result of some probabilty or lucky course of events. As Einstein said or believed " God does not play with dice"!

I don't believe in UFOs in the sense that was meant.

However I do believe it is highly likely that in the vastness of the universe there is life, including other intelligent life. There are so many stars in this galaxy alone and probably so many planets orbiting around them that it seems a fair chance that on some of them like this one the right conditions have formed, by chance or otherwise for like to develop.

Also, life finds away; conditions don't have to be perfect for life to develop, carbon life forms among others could exist in conditions we can't even fathom, as we simply haven't had any experience.

So like most people here, I tend not to rule anything out and accept that there is a likelyhood that we are not alone.

looking at it another way. In an infinite universe, anything is possible. We are proof of that, if it can happen in our part of the galaxy, then why can't it happen in any other part.

Looking at the laws of physics, if the Earth was formed by gravitational forces in this region of space, the chances are, that another world has also been formed.

The question of life may be more difficult, but again, given the infinite nature of the universe, we can't assume that we are here in splendid isolation..

The chances of us finding out however, are infintessimally small...

finite divided by infinity = as close to zero as makes no odds

it is weird though, when you log on here and of all the millions of people in the world and all the millions of internet pages, you find you are the only person logged on.... shouldn't be I guess, but it still is....

spooky

I know what you mean, sometimes I think it's funny how due to the internent, such an ecclectic group of people from around the world can have regular chats. It really does make you look at the bigger picture :)

Superbrat has been to Mars to meet other life forms. Now I'm back on earth i'll stick in my two penneth later :D

Yeah that's cos they have all been temporarily abducted by aliens, the are hanging upside down with probes on their bits. When they all come back though ti sure gets busy dont; it? roflmao

Very good post. Just about my opinion too.

I don't think it's possibel that we are it, I mean really if we are the best life form there is, then it's pretty sad IMO. roflmao As you say, we are not aware of any other life forms, and just cos we are not aware does not mean that none exist. The universe is huge, and it is most likely that we do nto knwo the full extent of it, so we will never know unless such life forms come here and announce themselves to us. If there is anything out there it is most likely not the green men in space suits form sci-fi movies. People seem to assume that aliens look that way, but that si merely a creation of the media, and is probably based on our own paranoias about being invaded, as Star Trek is.

There is life on earth that we are nto aware of yet. I watched the marvellous David Attenborough the other night, a repeat of Blue Planet. They went down into depths of ocean that had never before been explored, and some of the fish they found were truly bizarre and looked alien, if not prehistoric. There was also a place where they had said that it was impossible for life to exist, and yet a new micro environment had developed out of nothing on rocks, all these strange limpet like things and not sure exactly what they are but kind of sea plants, crabs etc all living and breeding quite happily. If we don't know the full extent of life on earth, then we cannot knwo the full extent of life in the universe. I guess there is life, but nto as we know it :D

What is important to conclude this debate is that both views can still be true.

Religious people may want to believe that the whole univers revolves around the earth (Aristotle) as it could still be the only inhabited planet.

While Atheists might still pursue the stat and probability laws.

People, take your side! :D

Yes Tenez, the truth is out there somewhere ....... roflmao

I don't think we have to take sides or that religious views are opposing.

Im a practicing Christian and look at my views on it....

Some religions can take the idea of extraterrestrial intelligence, some can,t, religions are not a fixed menu they are A la carte, what do i mean?
Take Christianity for example there are multiple versions of it, some tolerate homosexuality, some don't, some accept women as priests, some don't, some see Jesus as divine, some don't. Even within one religion you get many versions of the 'truth' Why? Becuase you either accept the literal truth of scripture, or you don't, if you don't it's a question of interpretation so for example the tower of babel is not a historical event but stands for as an allegory for meaning human beings come undone if they become arrogant.
If you and your belief's can accommodate ET, why worry about anyone else's after all you must believe you have the truth or you wouldn't believe it.

As i said in an earlier post, i'm doubtful anyway about ET existence outside our own planet fo rthe reason i gave.
Darwin's theory evolution implied that matter could transform itself into life, and then multifarious forms of life, given enough time and the right conditions.
Using this as a conceptual platform it's said -given a near infinite amount of matter (ie the universe) and time the same process must necessarily occur, making life in the universe not only a plausible but a logical inevitability.
The problem is there's no way to determine how probable or improbable the formation of life itself is. It's a bit like asking 'how likely was it that William Shakespeare' was born. He was born and lived of course, but does that mean he must have been born and lived? of course not, to exist does not mean must exist

Nice post there BT. Although I think you could've stopped at a la carte as that summed it up nicely :lol:

I'd really like to believe in God and angels,but where was He today in Virginia?Personally,I think that there must be life out in our vaste Universe somewhere.Not so sure about UFOs though and I definitely don't believe in alien abductions!

Just out of interest, and nto trying to insult any religion at all, can anyone answer where God was in Virginia? That si often a criticism levelled at God, he/she lets such disasters happen to innocent people. I've heard explanations but wonder fi anyoen has a view?

Well, the mainstream Judeo-Christian take on it would be that God created us with a free will, not as puppets on a string. So although it may grieve him to see these type of things happen, he does not intervene in every situation to prevent such evil.

Now, the Bible does say that God "works all things together for the good of those that love Him." So he can use tragedies for the good of his people, but he does not micromanage our lives to the point that all tragedies are prevented.

And just to add to that, god didn't create guns we did. That is the first thing that crossed my mind when I read Fedrules post.