Gay sex immoral says US general

Gay rights groups in the US have complained after the country's top military commander said he believed homosexual acts were "immoral".
Marine General Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he backed the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding homosexuality.

The policy bans homosexual acts between members of the military.
A gay rights group called the comments "a slap in the face to gay men and women serving with honour and bravery".
Joe Solomonese, president of Human Rights Campaign, said: "What is immoral is to weaken our national security because of personal prejudices."
Under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, introduced in 1994 to relax a complete ban on gays, commanders are not allowed to enquire about the sexual orientation of their personnel.

Soldiers, sailors and air force staff are not supposed to reveal their homosexuality, and are banned from engaging in homosexual acts.

"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Gen Pace told the Chicago Tribune.
"As an individual, I would not want [acceptance of gay behaviour] to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else's wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behaviour," he said.

Critics say the policy is discriminatory, and also counterproductive, as it may undermine recruitment as the US military is struggling to maintain sufficient forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
A 2005 government audit said 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the policy.

I wondered what peoples views are?

Well many people believe gay sex is immoral and that is their perogative, but making statements liek this in this day and age is just bloody ridiculous and smacks of fear and prejudice. I dont; see it as immoral at all, I dont; give a shit what people do as long as they don't HARM others - that great tennament of John Stuart Mill's Liberalism - the 'No Harm' Principle. And that is what immorality should be judged by and nothing else. For example, the fur trade is wrong as it harms animals in a bad way, but what harm does homosexuality actually do? it is not a question of harm but the fact that it offends people. And when we examine this we need to ask WHy does it offend? Because people are prejudiced and uncomportable with it, but they can get over this. My dad can be racist, but it comes from his fear and being bought up in a very racially specific and race conscious community and feeling persecuted for his race. He has improved though, and he woudl never speak like this. :)

Touchy issue, obviously. I don't think homosexuality should be something sacred that one should be castigated for believing it immoral. People have different views of morality. Some people also find things like gambling or alcohol immoral.

I'm not sure it's in the military's interest to pick out homosexual acts (or adulterous acts, for that matter) as something that should be prosecuted, though.

Trisco, have you heard of John Amaechi??

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,2023244,00.html

The point I'm making is that sadly most of walks in life where machismo reigns, homophobia will be prevalent.

Of course I think it's an unacceptable comment, but then again, I'm not in the armed forces, nor am I a professional sportsman in a team.

however, if I were the head of unit in the military (heaven forbid!) or managing a team , then I would be have to be hesitant about recruiting someone who was gay, for their own safety, sadly, in the face of other peoples' prejudices. I'd have to fire the homophobes first (preferable initial course of action ;) )

As Einstein once said: It's harder to crack a prejudice than it is an atom.. sadly :(

:clap: Nice comments SB & Nick. :D

You know what, I shouldn't surf the net sometimes as I can get easily enraged by other peoples comments... I have been reading some of the comments on here where The "General" originally made the remarks http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_t...u.html#comments
which seems to have turned into a debate about homosexuality and :blink: I find it bizarre how someonw can have such strong views against something that has NO impact on how they live their lives?

The no harm principle works for me SB. :D

:yahoo: I just had my comment posted on there! Near the bottom, if you read it you will see the comment from The British Guy

Great post :D Yep, sadly the problem is often that prejudices stem from threats and you hit the nail right on the head there, sayign that macho circles will be homophobic - it;s a threat to what they are about. And that's why we have sexism - machoism or patriarchy, whatever which way you want to put it. Women are a threat to these people. Macho bloody assholes I say - or is that the Pils talking? ;) roflmao

OK, playing devil's advocate here a bit, but it sounds like you're saying that it's fine for someone to believe that gay sex is immoral, as long as they don't speak it. That doesn't make sense to me.

There are a number of questions here, though.

Is it wrong of an individual to believe homosexual sex is immoral?

Is it wrong of a government institution to believe homosexual sex is immoral?

Does the military really have any interest in requiring morality?

obviously this man is talking out of his ass :rolleyes: :doh:

I would also add the social change in any area is like a steamroller.. It often moves slowly

It is up to the forces to try to bring about this change over time.. and this comment is doing the cause no good at all.

But I'll keep ussing the sporting analogy. Many male team sports are homophobic.. look at football in this country.. any gay player would not dare state their sexual orientation! :(

It is up to those with the highest profile to do something about this. It might be ingrained in such organisations, but that should never be a deterrent to trying to change things for the better.

Yes indeed, the No Harm principle is one of the most useful things in political philosphy that I ever came across. Now neighbours who cause you problems and treaten you day in and day out is harmful to you and hard to deal with, but gay neighbours who just live as a couple and have sex or whatever they want to do and do none of this are not harmful. How can you argue with it unless you are a self centred and picky asshole is my view :shrug:

I think, after re-reading my own questions, I would say that the military does have an interest in morality. Think about some of the atrocities that have been committed in past wars (and to some extent still are committed) by our military. But I'm not sure sexual morality (short of violent behaviours, like rape) should be of concern to them.

My answers to your questions Nick.

Is it wrong of an individual to believe homosexual sex is immoral?

Yes in my opinion but I ain't going to voice that and say you SHOULD think otherwise. People can believe what they like but, keep it in their own heads IF you stand a chance of disrespecting another persons beliefs or way of life. (If that persons beliefs or way of life have no harmful consequence on other people).

Is it wrong of a government institution to believe homosexual sex is immoral?

Absolutely YES.

Does the military really have any interest in requiring morality?

I can't answer this either way due to current affairs.

Ok, people can beleive what they like BUT we supposedly live in an equal opportunies world and to achieve this ideal we should all strive to be free of prejudice and respecting of difference, be it race, sex, disability, sexual orientation or whatever it is. So if you MUST believe that a harmless difference is wrong, shut up and don't let your prejudice influence the way you treat people - less favourable treatment of pthers due to your prejudice is discrimination. Everyone needs to examine and challenge their prejudices regularly to keep themselves in check as far as equal opps is concerned, and this should happen at both individual and organisational level. If progress cannot be made in terms of accepting that a group of people who do no actual harm to you or society, then the problem I'm afraid lies with the prejudiced individual NOT said group of people. And I do sympathise with this, but we have to try - as I said I can see why my dad was quite racist and it is all down to his upbringing and fellign threatened and uncomfortable. :) l

this was my comment on the Chicago tribune site.. tried to make it a little light hearted! lol All the other comments on their are shouting about how the guy does have freedom of speech but you can only take the freedom of speech thing so far.



Ok, there is free speech and there is just being damn rude and disrespectful to other people, people who have no bearing on how YOU live YOUR life. So what if someone is gay and in the military. How can you justify your opposition? I long for the day when we (the gays) start parading round your street shouting our disproval of how you live your life, how you decorate your house, how you mow your lawn.
"Get the straight interior designers out!! We cannot abide their obvious lack of taste! We can't sleep at night for worrying!"
That is all you moaners on here are doing, moaning about something miniscule another person is doing that has NO effect or consequence on you as a person and has NO effect on how they do their job, be it a homosexual soldier or a straight "interior decorator". Why you feel the need to denounce us is beyond all the reason of the INTELLIGENT posters on here. IE, the ones who aren't challenged by another human being who, GOD forbid, doesn't think like you.
The General fascist who made this comment is wrong and should be demoted. Free speech? Yeah, but not when you disrepect people who are currently serving and losing their lives in your armed forces.

Many people would hardly see the military as havign the right to be the high authority on morality, judging it on it's own behviour both on and off the war field.

Hey PP, missed your post earlier :blush:

i am gonna have a read of that story, I had never heard of him before, I had a quick glance and it was interesting to read some of the comments made from other people.

The comment about harder to crack a prejudice etc is very true. Although I do as a gay guy in Britain find that our society as a whole is way ahead of the field in some areas when it comes to homosexuality, admittedly I ain't lived anywhere else for too long a time but I think the predujice that was in Britain 10/20 years ago is quickly being worn away. Which is great to see.
There are still some issues though but as long as people can live their lives more freely than that is good.

Only way I have seen predujice was a friend telling me about a job he applied for, the application form asked for his sexuality so he ticked gay.... he was definately qualified for it but heard nothing. I then applied for the same job to test the water with 2 different applications, pretty much identical, on one I ticked gay, on the other I ticked straight and no, the gay me didn't get a response but the straight me got an interview! I told them where to go! lol
This was actually a University too!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Great post, fab analogy there trisco. :) And you say this guy should be demoted - well I agree. Look at what happened here - that sports commentator who said a racist term of camera was fired and whilst this is wrong, he never appeared to act a sa racist and also never spoke out in such a prejudiced way. We go OTT on some and yet others get away with it.

Hey Trisco.. the university application story is just shocking!!! :o

Yes, the UK is more tolerant than many places.. which is fantastic.. :ok: And a big plus point of living on this crowded little island :)

I made a second post too, which dovetails slightly with your thoughts about living in the UK. The UK has been ahead in terms of tolerance of gay culture for the last 30 year imo.. and the gradual progress on this has been steady but alwways ahead. Civil partnerships are one example of yet more groundbreaking in that respect.

:( saddens me to read of such things being said in such a high profile way. I fight quietly against prejudice of all descriptions in school - not telling the kids how to live their lives, but maybe just broaden their horizons a little and think about what they are really saying and what they mean... and how can you try to open up minds if they can read stuff like this?

If you decide that you really are against something, then theres nowt much anyone can do to change your mind I guess. But I think in this day and age, all intelligent people can agree that there are various things that, whilst you may not agree with them, are not to be highlighted in such a way that others may never try to think of an alternative point of view.

I agree with SB in that there is no harm going on here at all, and that is the thing that matters most. The only time that homosexuality causes any harm is when some self righteous eejit thinks he can inflict harm on a gay person. A truly scary state of affairs.

Good post pebs :)

I've always maintined that prejudice comes from a threat and I ahte ti when I hear blokes in pubs saying that a gay guy is threatening to them cos he is going to give them one up the backside! Sorry to be so crude but that is what I have heard. Firstly I say to such idiots dont; flatter yourself- just cos he is gay doesn't mean he is desperate for the likes of you. Secondly, how the bloody hell do they think women feel? being the physically weaker sex we are much more under threat form straight men than straight men are form gay men. They don't think like that though as they are so stupidly macho and are nto used to sexual threats beign so bloody domineering. :angry:

Isn't it a shame that the world media even bother with this as a news article? It just highlights it and shows a rather sad example. I will gracefully ignore it as much as I can on account of this chap being an idiot.

Of course its immoral, i never do things that are socially acceptable, thats boring :lol:

:blink:

roflmao

I did toy with posting this Gav... On one hand I didn't want to give it the attention it doesn't deserve and on the other... I got annoyed and wanted a rant about it! lol :D

roflmao

both good policies. lets rant, then ignore :D

thanks lovey, back at you :)

:huh: roflmao :bow:

Agree with SB: excellent post Pebs! :ok:

roflmao
I do that often Pebs! Have a good rant and then ignore the fact I am wrong on many occasion..

What? Me? yes I know I said Black is White but it's true...

I must say though as a gay man, sometimes i think of the fact that i am attracted to a man, and have sex with them, and it DOES feel wrong. Well, im not sure if wrong is the right word, but i have often wondered why i do the opposite of what nature expects of me :blink: Not that i think like that more than 1% of the time, but its not just extreme straight people that have such thoughts

dontcha just hate finding out you might have been wrong though? I dont like to back down either!

Wasn't aiming that at you trisco chap. It just seems with all the things happening in the world today that the media in general tend to go with the more controversial rather than the more newsworthy.

:hug: and back at you hun :)

Nah i know you weren't..

Talking about newsworthy items, what may I say is more newsworthy than the controversial Celebrity Big Brother Racism Scandal??

I for one love to read on a daily basis how some Z-List movie star has met Mr Blair and how some reality Tv Guinea Pig has gone on a trip to find herslef in India to apologise.. (with every gossip mag in tow, not for publicity purposes of course)
And Yes, Auntie BEEB, that is aimed at you! lol

Liam,

Ya gotta see this roflmao roflmao roflmao roflmao
I have just stumbled across it, I was trying to find you a self help link jokingly to *cure* your homosexuality! This has to be a piss take, I haven't read it all yet, had to share it..
http://www.hetracil.com/index.html

I love your honesty Liam, you are such a refreshing poster :D

basically it's only considered wrong cos it dont; lead to the norm of reproduction. I may as well be gay as I have dodged such an act for so long! roflmao

I agree with that, sometimes I think it's such a shame we live in a world with so many prejudiced people who see things in black and white.

We have a whole concept of pansexuality re-emerging in our culture, which I think is a good thing; a human is a human and a body is a body. We let gender divide and decide too many things in our society, don't let it. Gay or straight what's the difference....just break down those walls I say :)

roflmao

Anyway, all forms of discrimination should not be tolerated, it's as simple as that, mind you, this is probably the military getting the gay community back for YMCA roflmao