The last thing we want is for Nadal to lose his form. Nadal has been a blessing to tennis without this bloke can you imagine how one sided tennis will be?

After wimbledon Nadal seems to have drop several notches. If this was to last long we are looking at truely, the dark ages of tennis.

As a Nadal fan, I just dont like this first round loss. when he came back from injury, I think he had a couple of semi bad tournaments and then he was back on the ball. Even though he lost to a good youzny in the US, I didnt like it. The Nadal we know should be able to pull through things like this.

Is he finding it hard to cope with the fame now?

Is he now seeing exactly how big of an impact to tennis he is and getting frightened?

I dont get it.

Hardly anyone produces their best form all the time. Nadal's serve isn't that great and as its not as its best at the moment people are finding it easier to take it apart on the faster surfaces. He is probably lacking in confidence too atm.

He will get better again, but he will always be susceptible to losses, he isn't going to get to all the finals. He may well find some good form again in Madrid as im sure his aim is. Afterall he did well at the USO. But at the end of the day he wasn't good enough on the day against Youzny :shrug:

It's no big deal. He can't become a spent force overnight. He will be back to winning tournaments soon enough.

And he is still comfortably world number 2. Not too shabby for a 20 year old.

And if you look at all of the records of the people his age, or practically every 20-year old in the history of the men's game, they've all had dips in form. Also, the USO was his best ever performance there, and yet it's seen as a failure. He has to deal with very high expectations.

In recent tournaments he's had a weakness highlighted, i.e. against players who take the ball early and hit it flat. Berdych, Blake, Pim-Pim.. all are problem players for him. An on-form Safin could also cause problems, as could Nalbandian. This weakness was also highlighted last year, but it's even more glaring now that he is expected to reach finals as automatically as his main rival.

He was going the right way at Wimbledon, taking the ball earlier, standing closer to the baseline. He went back to clay court habits after that though, and it caused him problems. He's a bright boy, and no doubt realises this. Maybe he's lost a bit of confidence or appetite for the game? If so, then that will come back. I'm sure that he and Toni will sit down and figure out a counter-strategy for the flat hitters. Maybe the Dec/ Jan break will be the time for that.

Totally agree with petalp.

Also, as I've said here and elsewhere, I think he may have been mentally exhausted after the successful first half of the year; after all, his style of play requires a constant emotional involvement, much more so than Federer's imo.

Give him some time, and look for a return to form at the AO at the very latest!

In fact, his Madrid draw doesn't look so bad, he should make it to the quarters without much trouble. Playing against Roddick should be very interesting, if it comes to that --- they haven't met each other since 2004, I think.

He has beaten Roddick on clay before, I think he should beat roddick with slight ease. Just handle it the same way as Philipossi.

When the USO draw was announced, I was doubtful whether Roddick could trouble Nadal, but after seeing his good form (and Nadal's not-so-good form on hardcourts), I'm not so sure anymore.

I would give Nadal the edge, particularly at home, but I wouldn't put any money on it. I think it should be an exciting (and potentially close) match. Certainly Nadal v Federer would have more suspense in it than Roddick v Federer (assuming Fed makes the final, of course, which isn't 100% certain; he's got a number of excellent players to beat first).

On the other hand, I think Andy deserves some more good results; he's done well recently.

The first half of the year is predominantly slow courts and the second half is faster courts. Nadal and Federer both have their strong half of the year and in the other half they are questioned (Federer on Clay, Nadal on hardcourt). Everyone thought Federer was going to topple after Roland Garross but it was not so. I expect the same from Nadal. He has made amazing improvements for grass and although not quite as consistent as Federer on all surfaces will soon be back on clay and continue his streak.

Yes, they both prove thier strenghts in various surfaces but last year Nadal had a fantastic route to US open and he also had a good china and madrid tournaments but he really seems down this year. Hopefully I am wrong the spanish warrior will bounce back. ;)

petalp as often perfect..I like in particular this idea about Nadal:

"He's a bright boy, and no doubt realises this. Maybe he's lost a bit of confidence or appetite for the game? If so, then that will come back. "

Nevertheless my choice instead of "brightness" would be "maturity" B) : This guy is extremely mature for his age.
And this represents at the moment his strength (compare to other young guns of the same age) as well might be his source of troubles...Why a source of troubles: Because Nadal wants, as any player well aware of their potential, become a great player outside his native surface. But why this "thinking" to his game outside clay should lead him to some "bad" results?

Well he knows (he is bright and mature) that he will have to do same fine turning on his game to become a dominant player outside clay: He started already by improving his serve (IMO this explains mainly his good results in the US hard) but still he has to improve his return game on hard as well his approach to the net; against Youzhny he saw a certain stage that the match was moving away from him and he tried to move further into the net but the results were quite a disaster...
In other terms to get out of the clay he has to have a plan B to use in front of an emergency... ;)

I guess the last results are showing simply that he is developing this plan B:
Nadal is trying to learn and build a plan B. He needs to meet and to have even more matches with the BIG bosses of fast surfaces (I hope in Madrid he will be able to meet A-ROD for instance).

He will certainly lose some of these matches but this is part of the normal plan for being able to be great out of the native surface. Besides, having clay as a native surface it is really difficult: The way in which you move the speed of the ball and so on and so forth .All these elements generate difficulties when you need to adapt your game to fast surfaces.

Now, clearly this learning process is a pain for all players who wants to become "great": I really hope that his maturity would allow him to stay calm and patient: From that perspective, I am just worry about the media :yikes: in Spain as well the fans :yikes: : They should all of them calm down there is still a lot of time and simply stop asking too much. :whistle:

Very nice post, TV! :ok:

I would agree with the word 'maturity' being a factor, and his awareness of what he might need to do in order to considered a great all-court player. He has a great team of people around him to enable him to maximise his potential, whether in terms of coaching, fitness or general physical well-being. This is something that both he and Federer have in common..

And you are right about his 'Plan B' game. Sometimes if a player has a 'plan A' game that is so effective, they are not forced to develop a 'Plan B'. This is something that he will need to work on, particularly against those players who try to hit through him, as Blake, Berdych etc have done successfully.

And I would agree that he needs to be patient, as do the media, as well as his fans. I was out with a group of Spanish people recently and talked about Spanish tennis. He is a big hero in Spain!

Whilst it may take time for him to develop is skills on hard/ faster courts, time is indeed one thing that is definitely on his side.

Hi petalp (very nice post as well) ;)

Well interesting...two remarks :ok: :

"He has a great team of people around him to enable him to maximise his potential". To be honest I was a little bit surprise ( in negative) of his Team attitude during the US events: I still do not know why he decided to play double as well...Ok as we said he has to improve his plan B (mainly his attitude to the net) but still all this playing around in double with Lopez :yikes: .

Well I am still not fully convince if it was the good strategy: But still even at the level of the Team they have to follow a "learning by doing". Knowing a little bit the Latin mentality I think that it would be very nice to have as well an external (out of the family) personality: might be this external is already there (I am talking without being sure..And I do not like it :unsure: ).

If it is not the case, yes an "external" might be very helpful (BTW: in the FED the guy who prepare physically FED is a pure external guy-he is also the trainer of the Davis Cup Team- and FED likes a lot the advices of this "outside" person).

'Plan B'...Ummm I really believe that this plan exists whatever it is the degree of effectiveness of the plan An for a given player...

What is interesting it is evolution: recent example (so we can talk a bit of FED). Plan B of FED at Wimbledon final 2004 ...Well at that moment it was nothing more than the "old" Serve & Volley and he used it: A-ROD 4-2 in the third...rain delay...He came back and playing the plan B...
What is funny it is that with the time once you know that you have your plan B in place the plan B is vanishing (almost)... :P

Today plan B of FED is the same that the one follow by Pete at his peak: Wait and see. It is AMEZING when the players they have reached this TOP of their game status then their plan B is simply gone.They are waiting because they are so sure of their game. B)

But you see my point: Plan B is very important for Nadal at the moment because he has to do this last (additional) step that will lead him among the great player...

Question: Will he be able to do that? Who knows...This is one of the additional reason why Tennis is a great sport (And a sport very similar to real live)

Ciao and see you soon :D

I hear plan B a lot,but I prefer to think of it as being adaptable to any given situation.This is probably what Nadal needs to do better.It's not even wholesale changes,but perhaps just being able to sense where to attack an opponent.

At the french I thought it was highly predictable serving from him,but it did payoff against Roger in the end as he went to the backhand 90% of the time.If Roger had stayed hot then he would have looked stupid,but he must have got in his head and it told.

However by Wimbers he mixed his serve well.On faster courts this is where the problem is,how to hit more flatter winners and when as his natural instinct is the opposite.Will he ever be a genuine threat for Wimbledon or USopen?I have my doubts as I really can't see him adapting his playing style enough without ripping up his current game and building a new one.

Wimbledon and US still lend themselves to aggressive play and Rafa's extreme grips and loopy wristy style just don't buy him the time on these courts to win.He will always be vunerable to a Berdych,Blake,or even Roddick now that he has reverted to type.

I fully expect to see Nadal as hard to beat at Australia as Federer is.

Is there any reason why Nadal will be immune to the very players who have been beating him on hard courts recently?

You dont seem to like Nadal may I ask why. My reason for thinking so is he said "as federer is". So why dont you ask the same question for federer too.

Federer has only lost 3 matches on hardcourts in the last two years. Nadal has only won one hard court tournament all year (losing to Clement, Blake, Moya, Berdych, Ferrero, Youzhny and Johannson.) Brakkus is implying that Nadal will be harder to beat on Australian rebound ace than he has shown on hardcourts recently. It is an interesting point to debate I think and I look forward to constructive arguments, not immature speculations as to why I asked the question.

Well, I think point there might be because the AO courts are have less pace, therefore favours nadal alot but not anymore than federer.


P.s. it would be nice if you are not patronising a typical habit of a typical TROLL.

:doh:

Stockholm doesn't have pace. Miami is not quicker than Australia. Nor was Canada. Nadal has proven vulnerable on hard surfaces of all paces this year, so why would Australian rebound ace be different? Federer, who has lost just 3 matches on hard surfaces of all kinds since the 2004 summer Olympics, doesn't belong to this discussion.

Brakkus is not the only person to expect great things from Nadal in Australia, so I look forward to some mature arguments that Rafael will flourish from the over-18 members of this site!

Well, an 18yr old started this thread, if you dont like it, you know what to do.

Cool it chairman. I don't think Nick Cica was out of line with his question to Brakkus. No need for name-calling and stirring things up.

And as for the topic of discussion. I don't think you need to worry to much about Nadal. I don't think he's at the point where he's going to dominate all the time, but he's got a lot of talent. I think he'll do well here in Madrid. He's not the top dog on hard courts, though, so there are several players who could trouble him.

Well I also simply asked him a question and the was no need for this reply of his

"It is an interesting point to debate I think and I look forward to constructive arguments, not immature speculations as to why I asked the question. "

The name calling and beconing of it started there.

No. I think it started here, with you accusing him of asking the question, just because he's defensive of anyone comparing another player to Federer (which I don't think was the case).

Perhaps he could have phrased it better than "immature speculation", but why do even need to speculate about his motivation in asking the question?

well if he was uncomfortable with the "accusation" he could have just told me and I would have rephrased it. There was no need for his remarks.

The bottom line is this.
Nadal is mainly a clay court player. And on the clay he reigns supreme. When he plays other surfaces. He is excellent but his weaknesses for all other surfaces other than clay are shown up.
Federer is an all round player and is excellent on all surfaces . And is course is the best player in the world by far.
He has no weaknesses at all. That is why he makes Nadal look inferior to him on all surfaces but clay.
And the scary thing is. Even though Nadal is the best clay court player in the world. Federer is the second best.
Thats it really.

I wouldn't say Federer has no weaknesses at all, but he's pretty good at getting around them. When an opponent is having some success against him, I've seen him get frustrated and really play sloppy tennis from time to time. It usually doesn't last long enough to cost him the match, though.

I like the rivalry between Nadal and Federer, though. I hope Nadal does pick his game up a bit, so we get to see another match with Federer. They've got a good chance of meeting in the Masters Cup, if not before.

Well I must say this how your words can get twisted.I really like Nadal by the way.He's a great player and I was paying him a huge compliment when I talk about the AUS.
Even though Federer has won twice and been a semi-finalist in the last three years,I expect Nadal at full flight to possibly beat him there.

As for faster surfaces I stand my ground and agree totally with jymjilly.I remember back in the good old days of the 90's when Agassi was really flying.He really shouldn't have had the record he had at Wimbledon.S&V reigned supreme.Kriajek,Goran,Henman,Rafter,Becker,Edberg,and the great Sampras yet because of his ability he has a fantastic record there,but ultimately loses to the S&V PLAYING STYLE BECAUSE HIS BASELINE GAME WASN'T SUITED TO GRASS.

It was a testament to his talent(taking the ball on the rise)that he actually won it when grass was truly fast.
This is my point on Nadal,because he is so talented he will probably make some deep runs into the US&WIMBLEDON but ultimately will lose to a genuine attacking player like Federer,blake......etc.

No favouritism in my post here,just calling it from a tennis standpoint.

Hi Brakkus (BTW: Thanks once again for the Lendel's article)...

:ok: I share a lot of your views...And simply I want add some minor remarks:

Nadal is definitely a very good player, he was able to obtain already some amazing results on his native surface. Now, he will face the troubles, the real ones and this because he will face two source of pressure.

In one side, more and more people will ask him to perform outside clay: This was one of main points of my previous post. For these people if Nadal will not be able to something really special at the AO next year (semi as a minimum) well he could be that he will start to feel frustrated: "I am good but outside clay I am not able to reach the top". For them this might definitely affect his fighting spirit and generate might be a drop in the performance on clay. :shrug:

I continue to believe that this is a too negative approach about Nadal's future: I guess the guy is more mature than that (his recent interview in which he was saying to be happy to be the number 2 given that FED is around is just an additional proof of that).

In the other side, some other people (myself definitely) will accept a more quite approach: For them, Nadal is still building his famous plan B against the "heavy" players (e.g. Blake, A-ROD and so on) and he needs more time. :) Some of the plan-B elements are almost there: his serve game has improved a lot during the US hard season. Now he has to find the way to become more efficient near the net.: This is needed because time to time against the "heavy" you need to short the point and aggress them to the net( this is the best strategy to disturb them: i.e. there is nothing worst for them that "variety" and changing rhythm - FED is proving so well) ;)

To be honest with you I do not know if he will be able to be ready with an effective plan B for the AO: he should take this event still as a learning event and go there without any pressure from the first category of people I pointed out above :whistle: ...

But I guess this will be very difficult: Spain media are not helping him and some of his fans as well (the author of this thread for instance :whistle: ) ...

But this is nowadays world: Ask always more and please quick create a rivalry with FED if not it is boring (bof) :yikes:

More than happy to continue the discussion and tell me if it is clear...I have always some terrible doubts on that side..

Ciao

Just wanted to say thanks for your reply and I was in agreement of your view on Plan B.I'm sure we were getting at the same thing.
No need for doubts you make perfect sense. :ok:

I'd just like to point out that when Fed lost a couple of matches earlier this year, people (well, some people) were beginning to wonder if it was the beginning of the end. And what happened after Roland Garros? Fed soared again (with a minor dip to Murray :blink: ). Nadal is surely too good and committed a player to just fizzle out at this stage - and he is only 20.

Both great posts!! :bow:

I would only wish to add something from the 'Reverse Ace' thread. I am curious as to how much quicker the Oz Open people will make the courts when they resurface them this month. This will suit the Federers, Roddicks of the game, rather than Rafa, and may make him more vulnerable to the agressive flat hitters as he has been in the hardcourt season.

Agreed re: 'Plan B' though.. And also very sensible observations about some very high expectations of Rafa Fans.. I really don't like this 'Hero to Zero' approach to sport that many seem to adopt these days. As Scolios observed, people were even having doubts about the fedster when he lost a few matches to Rafa earlier this year.. and this about a guy who has a record of 79-5 this year!! Be realistic people.. players play well one day and can inexplicably be poor another day. That's just the way that it goes sometimes. And take the highs with the lows with your favourite players, just roll with the punches if your players lose. Good grief, if people get this panicky/ wound up/ miserable if their players lose, then I wonder how they cope with the little setbacks in their own life? :shrug:

Just read this on the beeb site :)



Nadal blames slump on tiredness

Nadal is taking a week off before heading to Paris
Rafael Nadal says his recent run of poor form is down to fatigue.
The 20-year-old has not gone beyond the semi-finals in any tournament since reaching the Wimbledon final in July.

"The Rome Masters and Wimbledon were my best two tournaments this season and since then I've been feeling tired," said the world number two.

"I had a lot of matches in the first half of the season and my muscles were very tired. Mentally, too, it was a big effort. But I'm playing better now."

Nadal is currently taking a week off before he heads to Paris for the Masters Series event, starting on 30 October.

"I'm going to Paris to do well because it's one of the most important events of the season," Nadal said.

"I feel much better now than a couple of months ago."

Mmm,
Interesting how the young ones are much more tired than the old ones. Weird.

He did play an awful lot of matches in the front half of the season, though, and his style of play is more tiring that some. I don't blame him for skipping this week, as he has very little to gain from playing. I doubt Federer would be playing, either, if it were not his home tournament. It's not like he needs the ranking points.

Besides, we older guys DO have more stamina. ;)

Right, i know i'm gonna get slated by a lot of people for posting this, so i'll start off by saying i'm not sure that I agree with what's being said, but i would like people's opinion. I'm stealing this from a post on the BBC:

"Funny how his fatigue has coincided with Dr Fuentes of Operacion Puerto fame going out of business (and remember, Nadal threatened to sue for being linked to this blood doping affair that has rocked cycling and which the Spanish authorities have closed ranks over. Nadal surprisingly has taken no action despite his protestations of innocence)."

First of all, this isn't me saying that i believe that Nadal was blood doping - for a start i'm not sure quite how blood doping would be *that* useful in tennis. But it is an interesting point that many of nadal's bad results came after wimbledon - and (for those who don't know) it was around wimbledon that cycling began to implode as big names were linked with Dr Fuentes :cry:

It was said at the time that there were also footballers and tennis players on the lists, but those names were never released, although as was said in the post above, Nadal's name was linked to the Operacion.

Again, i'm not saying i believe Nadal was doping, and I know i'm going to get told off by many Nadal fans, but I bring it up for two reasons

a) to get an opinion

and

B) because i'm a cycling fan - a big one. I loved the sport and it's been the sport that i've grown up with. The whole drug-taking thing was never really spoken about in cycling although a lot of people had some idea what went on behind closed doors. And then it suddenly came to the forefront of the sport in a dramatic style, and it's plagued cyclists and cycling fans alike since the late 90s. And honestly, it's killing the sport. Thus I do think it's kind of important to discuss the subject of drug-taking in sport.

Again, i'm not saying that i believe that Nadal was doping, but i do think it's an interesting point for discussion. Again :hug: to any Nadal fans.....

Mea culpa! I was the one who posted Dinky Jo's quote and apologies for the the rather intemperate tone in which it was written. Sadly, high density trolls have the habit of bringing the troll out of all of us!

But of all that, I was being serious. This scandal exploded towards the end of the Giro d'Italia bicycle race and it was reported that the names of 200 sportsmen in a variety of disciplines were implicated. It was only the cyclists who have been named but Pat McQuaid, head of the International Cycling Federation, was told by the Spanish authorities that although 55 cyclists were implicated, 20% of other names were tennis players. Real Madrid footballers were also strongly rumoured to be involved. The Spanish authorities have behaved highly suspiciously and are no longer even prepared to help the cycling authorities ascertain the identities of those involved. There is a strong whiff of a cover up, it has to be said. Several sources have reported that a Roland Garros finalist was among the names implicated ... it doesn't mean Nadal but it could. However, he has been named, threatened to sue but has failed to do so.

First of all, let us just be clear what Fuentes was offering. His principal service was to store extracted blood, which was then reinfused at a later date, by which the time the donor body would have recovered naturally, thus giving a physical boost. Such a procedure helps endurance athletes. It also seems likely he was prescribing all manner of other illegal substances (at least to cyclists) but that seems to have been more of a side line. The most bizarre aspect of the case is that virtually all of Lance Armstrong's rivals seem to have been visiting this very same Dr Fuentes for self transfusions, a case of a single man arming ten different sides in a complex war! And I think it is no less likely that Armstrong was doing the same elsewhere (if he wasn't, then it is hard to see how he could have competed.) The sad fact is that professional road race cycling, which is the toughest of all endurance sports, has a deeply entrenched doping culture and it does seem that everyone is involved. Personally, I don't think self infusions is a profoundly evil crime, it relatively safe and harms no one. And if your opponents are resorting to this technique, you really have no option but to follow suit. It is certainly preferential to the massive EPO arm's race of the 1990s.

OK, so why would a tennis player resort to auto-transfusions? For the same reason that a football player would. Zidane has admitted pretty much that he did this, that if you are running like mad for match after match, you gradually become anaemic and if you can top up your blood, it is a safe way of getting yourself back to your prime. A Nadal-esque player doesn't only run like a madman on the court, he is also training like mad. In fact, the majority of doping in sport is actually to enable longer training sessions. So it is entirely feasible that a player with a high octane physically charged game would benefit from Dr Fuentes.

I have long had my suspicions about Nadal, whose physical development was suspiciously fast. When he played Federer in Miami in 2005, he began to tire after 3 sets which is entirely normal for an 18 year old. A month later, he was seemingly impervious to fatigue. This doesn't mean that he achieved this by foul play. But this kind of improvement is at least consistent with external help. Peter Bodo of Tennis.com also remarked on this at the time, I believe.

Does tennis have a drug culture? I'm sure there have been tennis players who have taken short cuts using illegal substances but there is no indication that it is as deeply ingrained as with cycling and being a game that requires immense hand eye coordination etc. a doping culture wouldn't distort the sport as it could be argued that cycling has been deformed. But I would say that Spanish sport has a big problem. Doping was not illegal in Spain and I believe the first legislation that criminalises it may only come into force in the next few weeks. Many athletes who have been proven to have dope, did so in Spain. And some of these Spanish sports doctors move from one sport to the next (Fuentes worked with cyclists but earlier, he was the official doctor for Spanish track and field athletes!) Did you know that the personal physician to the great Miguel Indurain (who was a fantastic cyclist but almost certainly was a heavy drug user as all his generation were) subsequently worked with Arantxa Sanchez, and members of the Spanish Wightman Cup squad?

I would not be surprised if a huge blood doping scandal were to break out in tennis (or many other sports.) Whether that would affect Nadal remains an open question.

Hi Nick - i didn't want to attribute the quote to you as i hadn't asked your permission. But i thought you were raising an interesting point.....

I'm not gonna add much to your post 'cos it basically says everything I would have said. But i did find it very interesting that all of Nadal's bad results have come *after* Wimbledon - it was very reminiscent of a lot of cyclists who got caught doping and then came back to do absolutely nothing of note......(look at a lot of the folks who got caught in the Festina scandal!)

I would hate to believe that any tennis player were taking banned drugs, but then i didn't want to believe that Ullrich was doping either and he went and broke my heart :wub: :shrug:

ps. Nick - i also thought posting the quote here might get a less troll-like response. I'm just waiting for the "Typical of arrogant Fed-fans" or something.....

I think women's tennis might actually have the greater problem, at least in terms of steroid abuse. Certain players have been seen to bulk up quite remarkably and swiftly.

Ultimately though, doping in sport has to be seen as a health issue. I don't believe there is any point in trying to publicly humiliate sportsmen, especially in environments such as cycling where frankly no one has the right to throw the first stone. Sadly, WADA has become politicised and is not interested in constructive prevention. I hope tennis learn the lesson that cycling has provided.

Not sure about that Nick, after all there has been a lot more cases with drug abuse for the men than the women. I think the WTA is very clean.